Is Sanzo a virgin?

[louiselux]

It's Monday, time for a poll! So, my Saiyuki friends, here's the question:

[Poll #621505]

eta: do feel free to elaborate in comments.

Comments

[jamjar.livejournal.com]

For a definition of virgin involving consensual and also, mutual orgasms.

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

So, mutual masturbation or something like that?

[scribblemoose]

.... but not for long. ^_~

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

Hehehe.

[hungry-worm.livejournal.com]

First I wanted to choose the other possibility, but then I thought of the saying: "you don't miss what you don't know"...

Well, it's not disinterest as such, but he seems not to be affected by other's, er, wooing rituals (lack of understanding?) That, and the perpetual state of being grumpy and easily irritated can be interpreted in many ways. ;D

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

Yes, there's his first kill, which must've been absolutely appalling and put him on his guard ever since.

He doesn't seem interested in physical pleasures, really.

[mistressrenet.livejournal.com]

I often get the impression that he thinks people see weakness when they find him attractive, and so anyone who would be interested is almost turned down by default.

[new-kate.livejournal.com]

He probably is in his Burial saga, but I don't think he is now. And not just because he had known Hakkai and Gojyo for four years *cough*. Seems like, urges aside, they way Gojyo had sex to fill the void (um, so to speak XD), and Hakkai did it because of love, and Goku'd do it because it sounds like FUN, Sanzo would do it to have done it. He's like that.

You know this buddhist story: two travelling monks met a woman who asked them to carry her across the stream. One of them did so, and they continued on their way. Some time later the second monk said: "That was a wrong thing to do, we are not supposed to touch women." The first one replied: "I've put her down already, and you are still carrying her." This sounds like Koumyou's version of birds and bees talk to me.

However!!! Virgin Sanzo fic set at any point of the timeline? YES PLEASE!!!

[telophase.livejournal.com]

Mm. I see Sanzo as too conflicted at this point in time to be able to put anyone down like that. He's carrying Goku, Gojyo, and Hakkai, no matter how much he claims not to, and he's still carrying Koumyou around, too.

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

I didn't know that story, and I really like it. It's true - it's so much like something Koumyou might've said. I think I'd find your argument the most compelling of everyone's, if it weren't for the feeling that Sanzo wouldn't dare let anyone get that close to his maelstrom of issues, possibly in case the lid came off.

I would *love* virgin!Sanzo fic - if only someone would write some!! Although at some point I've decided I'm going to try and write my 'Sanzo falls in love with OC' story that I mentioned a while ago, and I think he may be a virgin in that, or as good as.

[baka-gaijin.livejournal.com]

"..Sanzo would do it to have done it."

I so agree. He would see his erection as just another annoying thing that he can't control, that has to be taken care of.

Sanzo: "Hakkai, fuck me."
Hakkai: "My, my, Sanzo. Has it been a month already?"
Sanzo: "Hakkai, shut up and fuck me and get it over with."

[emungere.livejournal.com]

I said yes, but I may in fact have meant no. Because I could see him trying it once while he was off on his own, not thinking much of it, and just not bothering to try it again.

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

Yeah - I think something along those lines too, although I still tend to also think he would've avoided close contact with anyone, apart from Goku, like the plague. I just can't decide.

[myroughdraft.livejournal.com]

I've thought long and hard (omg o-o) about this in the past, and I think he's a virgin. He has no use for sex.

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

I think I know what you mean - that he just doesn't see the point? I kind of think that's based on a horror of intimacy though, which the right person could break through

[telophase.livejournal.com]

He has such a thing about being touched by anyone, physically or emotionally, that I can't see him having even casual, meaningless, or bad sex. Goku's managed to get close to him primarily because he was a kid when they met. He respects Hakkai in a weird way, but they both keep their barriers up so high I think there's little chance of anything happening. Gojyo's got that thing about commitment, and I can't really see him seriously trying to sleep with someone he's knows he's going to be forced to see the next morning, and the next morning, and the next morning. Sanzo tends to block Gojyo with his gun whenever Gojyo gets too close physically or emotionally with his flirting and teasing - I don't think he's let that barrier down in the past.

Now, Sanzo is deeply conflicted and there's a good chance he wants to have that closeness with someone deep inside, but he's also very good at denial and I doubt he allows himself to think about it.

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

I almost certainly think he does want that closeness, but it's unacknowledged like you say, possibly also because he also thinks he doesn't deserve it. He clearly still blames himself for the death of Koumyou. The point about how he uses his gun on Gojyo is interesting, in light of the first person he ever shot being someone who was intending to assault him sexually.

[yonmei.livejournal.com]

You didn't allow for the option of "don't know, don't care" so I subtly voted for it anyway by pressing Submit Poll and not clicking either of the clicky-things.

But you might not have noticed unless I let you know, hence this comment. :-)

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

Well, thanks. ;) I had to go and try that myself to see what happened. I wasn't really interested in knowing the numbers of don't know/don't care.

[cicer.livejournal.com]

He totally is. The kid grew up in a monastery, for heaven's sake, and as soon as he left the only people he met were usually trying to rape/kill him, which I'm sure left a bunch of trauma. Who is he going to have sex with, anyway? He's just way too uptight, and too tense and fearful about letting anyone else touch him like that. I don't think he trusts anyone enough to have sex with him. Plus, as someone else said, he really has no use for sex.

I really need to dust off that half-finished virgin!Sanzo fic, don't I?

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

You so do

I can see him having sex with a stranger, precisely because he'd never have to see them again or bother about trusting them. Although perhaps he might be tempted to hold a gun to their head the whole time. Alternatively, I can see teenage Sanzo during the Burial arc deciding he's absolutely never going to touch anyone like that ever, and that habit of thought sticking as he gets older because of the trauma, but also because it's just easier.

So, do you think he trusts Hakkai or Gojyo enough to have sex with them, really?

[viridian5.livejournal.com]

I have different thoughts at different times (and for different fics) on whether he's a virgin. Either way, I think I can say that I don't think he's ever had what we would consider to be good sex of the affectionate or pleasurable kind. If he's not a virgin, I've had thoughts that he tried it with a stranger he'd never have to see again just to get it over with. In one fic I saw him, while traveling alone those early years, using sex to buy his way out of a situation he couldn't see any other way out of.

He has issues and trauma with over love and sex. Goku's a kid that he refuses to admit he loves because something horrible will happen to Goku if he does. He feels responsible for Hakkai, seeing as he's kind of Hakkai's parole officer. Gojyo is always pushing at him verbally, mentally, emotionally, and sexually and he probably would see it as surrender if he gave in on any of it. Plus, he has to worry that he might lose any of them to the Minus Wave.

The right author can make me believe that he can finally act sexually on his affection for any of them but the process has to be shown first. Fics in which Sanzo is already in an established sexual relationship with little explanation of how it came to be need to be extra good to work for me.

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

Yes, it takes a lot to make it convincing. As to whether he's a virgin, I'm quite torn on that issue. I can see him both ways, either as someone practical enough not to fight against his sexual needs but who has never linked it with affection of any kind, or as someone so traumatised by his early experiences, and who is also by nature a loner, that he's never let anyone close enough.

He's also a creature of habit and if he decided early on that sex wasn't for him, then I think it would be easy for him to just carry on ignoring sex altogether. He obviously sees intimacy of any kind as highly dangerous and I love to watch him battle with that in his dealing with them all. He seems so vulnerable at those moments, whe you get a glimpse of the affection he hides most of the time.

[nekonexus.livejournal.com]

erm. At the risk of raising squick (shota?) flags and everything else, I voted no, because of Shuuei, and what I've read about bi-do (http://www.androphile.org/preview/Culture/Japan/japan.htm) (which is more about the samurai, but also more than that, and granted my knowledge is limited).

He gave Shuuei his prayer beads. He makes a big point about how he never gives gifts to anyone. You could argue that it was an unfulfilled love, and I'm sure that's true in some quantum universe just as I'm sure that he probably did love Shuuei enough to give him everything in some other quantum universe.

Just because he seems to have no use for sex doesn't necessarily mean that he's never had it. ^_^;

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

I don't think there is one single answer here either. I believe lots of things a the same time about Sanzo, which makes for endless variations of fic. *g*

Personally I don't think they were having a physical relationship, although maybe if things had been different it might have developed from that point.

[kintail.livejournal.com]

I want to vote both yes and no, times infinity on each. Like nekonexus, I believe in quantum variations that are all equally correct. There are many quantum variations in which he's a virgin, and many quantum variations in which he's lost his virginity to many different people in many different circumstances. And I can believe in all of them if they're well written.

I'm also going to agree with nekonexus about Shuuei. From the site he linked to, it seems that it wouldn't have been unusual in the context of the monastery for them to have had a sexual relationship, or to have been moving towards that. Whether it was consumated or not, I think what happened (or might have happened) between them is going to have a huge effect on whether and with whom he would choose to have sex as an adult.

I also believe in Sanzo/Goku being an issue (again, whether consumated or not) for most values of Goku = at or past puberty, because Goku is a force of nature, and as such would probably become sexually active given the opportunity as soon as his body is ready for it -- and with whom else would he be? Cultural disapproval doesn't have much effect on forces of nature and animals, and besides, Goku's cultural influence is mostly going to be from the monastery where it seems it would be expected for Sanzo and Goku to have a sexual relationship -- and indeed there have been examples of such expectations.

But I also believe in quantum variations where there was no Shuuei/Sanzo and is no Sanzo/Goku, where Sanzo is a virgin, and so on, and those can be just as real. ~_^

[cicer.livejournal.com]

This is so interesting, and I love picking other people's brains about this kind of stuff. I had completely forgotten about Shuuei, but I'd never even thought about them in a sexual way. Hm. But now that I look back on it, there are...overtones? Definitely something.

And yes on the Sanzo/Goku thing. I suspect that it might be very possibly that when puberty kicks in for Goku he might look at Sanzo in a whole different way. Very interesting.

And yeah, like you said, there are infinite possibilities, and a well-written author can make me believe any (or all) of them.

[doire]

I have this quietly bubbling idea of Sanzo having had through and comprehensive training in sexual control and techniques along with all the other physical instruction he’s picked up. Imagines rows of solemn novices…

Young teenagers can be excruciatingly earnest so he may have left the temple before ever having the chance to connect this knowledge with the chaotic and dangerous territory of sexual pleasure for the fun of it.

It could be a nasty shock for someone. :)

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

Oh, I love that idea. You should write it. I think Sanzo was very earnest as a young man. He iddn;t drink or smoke and he was clearly trying to live up to the title of Sanzo. Poor thing.

[hibem.livejournal.com]

Personally, I tend to read him as asexual and, further, I stubbornly insist that one doesn't have to be horribly traumatized to be uninterested in sex. Maybe it carried over from Konzen?

[mistressrenet.livejournal.com]

He was traumatized, though-- at least his first kill was about rape, and people have very much wanted to use him ever since. He could still be asexual, mind you, but he certainly has canonical reason to be turned off from sex.

[mistressrenet.livejournal.com]

He won't tell me, but his crazy touch issues always lead me to 'virgin.' I think he desperately craves touch-- and love for that matter, but that's another, deeper issue-- and will never let himself admit it. And when and if he does let someone touch him, it'll be on his own terms or it'll all be over.

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

I think he craves them too - mostly because he denies and conspicuously ignores them to such an extent. As for being on his own terms - yes, definitely. I think he has to develop to the point where he realises he is allowed to have these things, and that he deserves them.

[kanzenhanzai.livejournal.com]

I'm going with 'virgin' on this one.

Even when he was (more) capable of admitting he cared about people, I don't think anything sexual having happened (for one thing I just don't see Koumyou letting that go down, no matter how close Shuuei and Kouryou might have been).

He has issues about people being close to him in *any* fashion and enough childhood trauma to turn him away from casual sex at the least. I think he's either decided he doesn't have time for/interest in sex, or he just *doesn't*.

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

Mmm, I think I have to agree with you here. I can't see Koumyou letting that happen either, and also Koumyou's very powerful and I can't see the other monks wanting to risk that kind of trouble.

[rushthatspeaks.livejournal.com]

Here from telophase. One of my friends in college who was studying the differences in practices between various Buddhist cults and the general Buddhist monastic tradition made a pretty good case for sex being the method by which the office of Sanzo is passed-- I forget her precise arguments, it was based on something involving Chinese permutations of the Indian master/chela relationship-- and I pretty much go with that. So once, in a Terribly Significant and probably very confusing and definitely extremely important and *definitely* on the bottom sort of way, and then Koumyou's death, and then not again after that. And Koumyou Sanzo would've been all conflicted about it, too, and that conflict would have been passed along. This works for me as a general Sanzo characterization, especially since I tend to think that the addition of sexuality reduces the complexity of his relationships with each of the other three.

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

Oh, what a very cool theory. I like the way it might explain a lot about Sanzo and his attitide to sex, and I can imagine it happening something very like how you describe.

[ranalore.livejournal.com]

I voted no, because that's what I'm more often inclined to think, but it partly depends on the definition of "virgin." I think he's had sex. What kind of sex I think he's had (anal, oral, frottage), and whether or not it was consensual, varies wildly.