Dressing up and Ukoku's brain

[louiselux]

puddingcat came to Reading yesterday to get fitted for her coat of many buttons, so in the afternoon I met up with her and her dressmaker friend Claire and landlady Laura. We hit up the John Lewis haberdashery and Fabricland and a couple of shoe shops and now I feel so enthused about dresses and fabric and shoes. I can't wait to see puddingcat's coat - she showed me the pattern and it's a sort of pirate frock coat with panels and huge cuffs.

I'm thinking of commissioning a dress from Claire too. I just have to decide on what I want: either something 60s style in a simple A-line/shift dress style, or a full skirted 50s style dress.

Also, when we were randomly chatting about stuff, puddingcat made a really interesting point about Nii - he's a sanzo monk, so can he really be so evil? Is he really going to suck Sanzo into his black hole of doom and destroy him, or is he just teaching Sanzo something, but doing it in a particularly nasty way? Maybe he is working to the greater good. Innnnnteresting.

puddingcat compared him to Kanzeon Bosatsu, who isn't exactly pleasant in the way she goes about things. She didn't have to let Goku be imprisoned in a cave for 500 years after all.

I like this idea, because it balances Ukoku's character somewhat. Also, I don't know if Koumyou was actually such a nice person. Discuss.

Comments

[avierra.livejournal.com]

Also, when we were randomly chatting about stuff, [info]puddingcat made a really interesting point about Nii - he's a sanzo monk, so can he really be so evil? Is he really going to suck Sanzo into his black hole of doom and destroy him, or is he just teaching Sanzo something, but doing it in a particularly nasty way? Maybe he is working to the greater good. Innnnnteresting.

Well, I don't think there's any particular requirement that Sanzo priests be "good." Also, Nii has not been accepted by the gods as a Sanzo priest (hence no bindi on his forehead), so I would think it would make it even more likely that, while he does have Sanzo powers and controls a sutra, he has no particular requirement to be "good." Neither is Sanzo himself, for that matter (although he does have a bindi).

I do like the idea that Nii may be kicking Sanzo's ass to teach him a lesson. Perhaps that lesson is "How can you hope to defeat Gyumaoh, who put the gods themselves on notice, when you can't even defeat me, who is a human being." Or maybe he's just a bastard who is toying with Sanzo just because he can, before he kills him.

Also, I think Nii's taking revenge on Sanzo, the favorite child, for various slights that Nii feels Koumyou dealt him. Dying is a big one, and neither he nor Sanzo have ever really gotten over it. He seems to have a great deal of resentment towards Sanzo for Koumyou's death (although I personally believe at this time that Nii was responsible for that death in terms of trying to get the sutra away from Koumyou (and perhaps kill chibi-Sanzo while they were at it -- he just didn't think Koumyou would sacrifice himself). And hmmmm.

Maybe there is some sort of weird, twisted, pseudo-fratricidal sibling rivalry going on on Nii's part, with Sanzo.

So, why is Koumyou not a nice guy? I don't think he's all that nice because he was playing some sort of long game with a thirteen-year old kid and his emotionally troubled protege-of-sorts Nii, and deliberately setting them against each other (the bet) and set the bet into play by sacrificing himself. Nii had a very valid point about that, that Koumyou was powerful, so it was deliberate.

[stalkerbunny.livejournal.com]

"he's a sanzo monk, so can he really be so evil?"
On the other hand, he was an unsanctioned sanzo monk, right?
There certainly isn't much proof of Kanzeon being a particularly nice character, no. I was just thinking yesterday about the heaven in Saiyuki, and how the supposedly enlightened (if I've understood the system right?) gods there don't seem particularly...well, the ones we've seen have acted pretty much like regular humans, I'd say.

I find Koumyou the only character harder to interpret in Saiyuki than Nii, which is pretty damn mysterious.
One theory I have is that all we know about him is basically through the memories of either Nii or Genjyo Sanzo. So I've also wondered how much we can trust their "testimony" on the matter. After all, Genjyo was a child who probably idolized Koumyou at least to some extent, whereas Nii...I'm not entirely sure what he felt about Koumyou. Reading the relevant Burial chapter once I wondered if Ukoku was actually a bit afraid of him, but I really couldn't tell for sure.
So, that's just my two cents. >_>;

[scribblemoose]

Oooh, interesting!

She didn't have to let Goku be imprisoned in a cave for 500 years after all.

Well... probably she did, because he did something awful in heaven, right? Plus, time doesn't mean much to bodhivista I don't suppose. I know Goku's cute and cuddly, but it was the sharp and pointy Saiten Taisei she imprisoned, I think? Presumably for long enough for Konzen/Sanzo to become enlightened enough to release him.

As for Nii - nope, I'm not convinced, he seems pretty evil to me. I agree with avierra; Sanzos don't have to be good, and Nii obtained his Sanzohood through force. He doesn't have the chakra, either.

Plus, this is Buddhism, rather than Christianity, so the good/evil thing doesn't apply in quite the same way.

However, I'm not convinced that Nii is the evil protagonist, exactly - I think he's as much a pawn of the Merciful (!) Goddess as anyone. I have this growing feeling that she's out to teach Konzen/Sanzo a lesson of some kind, and that Nii, Koumyou and all the others are part of her game, wittingly or otherwise.

I did really like Nii's point in the last chapter that Koumyou allowed himself to be killed. I'd never really thought of it before, but of course he was far too powerful to allow himself to be killed by Nii some random youkai. I think he knew what Sanzo's fate was to be and played his part on purpose. [Edit: there's also the possibility that Koumyou (and/or Kanzeon Bosatsu) knew Sanzo would need to be grief-driven and desperate to defeat the Evil (be it Ukoku or something else) and that Koumyou couldn't do it himself.]

And, probably because he's so scarily clever, I'm pretty sure Ukoku has worked all this out. I think he's playing Bosatsu's game, but not out of any philanthropy. He just realises it's pointless to resist and fancies having a bit of fun along the way.

I find myself wondering more and more if there's a relationship between Nii/Ukoku and Nataku. But that might just be my desire to tie up loose ends ;)

Overall, I think it's Kanzeon Bosatsu's game from start to finish, and she'll intervene if Ukoku gets carried away. Meanwhile I suspect she thinks what he's doing to Sanzo is just character-building. ^_^;

[lady-ganesh.livejournal.com]

One of my friends held the theory that Nii was Litouten's reincarnation. I never quite agreed, but it's something to think about.

[lady-ganesh.livejournal.com]

I think Ukoku was afraid of him. I think he's afraid, at least a little, of Genjo, or he wouldn't be thinking 'I should have killed Goku' in the latest chapters.

[lady-ganesh.livejournal.com]

As others have said, good and evil aren't quite the same things in Buddhist thought.

And remember, Kanzeon wasn't in charge in Heaven-- the Emperor was. She may have intervened, but exactly how or why we don't know.

Koumyou wasn't nice. He wasn't nasty, either, but he wasn't nice.

[acantabloom.livejournal.com]

I guess I always assumed (based on Journey to the West) that Goku was imprisoned for 500 years specifically waiting for Sanzo/Konzen. I wonder what would have happened if he had been released into the world without Sanzo freeing him, and it might not have been pretty, because Goku is very, very dangerous.
With that being said, Kanzeon definitely isn't nice, and most of the other Saiyuki characters aren't either, or at least, they try not to be.
It never occurred to me that Nii might NOT be the major villain in the series, but that would certainly be a very interesting twist. However, Nii was behind Kami-sama, manipulated Hazel, and did a whole bunch of genuinely nasty stuff, which is a long way from being just "not nice".
I think Koumyou knew exactly what Nii/Ukoku was, and from Burial it seems like they were sort of friends in a way. (Or they could have been friendly enemies--it's hard to tell) And the fact that Koumyou understood Ukoku and still basically supported him as a sanzo is a pretty clear sign that Koumyou was "not nice" either. Right now, Koumyou is probably the most elusive and mysterious character in Saiyuki (I really, really want more info on him)...but to see in the most recent chapter that he died intentionally/willingly was nice confirmation, because I had always imagined it to be that way. Now the question is, did Nii/Ukoku plan Koumyou's death, or was it outside of his calculations?

[despina-moon.livejournal.com]

I'm a big fan of mythology, be it folk and fairy tales or religious text (I rarely distinguish between them.) One thing I've learned from my own self-study (that is scary to contemplate) is powerful beings have their own code of right and wrong, good and evil.

Kanzeon Bosatsu is called "Merciful." Maybe imprisoning Goku for 500 years was merciful. There was an arrangement, it seems, that Goku would get to meet Konzen again, perhaps, considering the bureaucracy of Heaven, that was the best she could do. In Monkey, Goku's imprisonment was a penance because he kicked heaven's ass and was pretty much on a nearly unstoppable rampage, but considering this Goku's nature, I'm uncertain that part of the original story applies here.

I'm sorry, I'm rambling.

As for Nii, I prefer to remain solidly in the belief that he is one crazy motherfucker.

[scribblemoose]

Goku's imprisonment was a penance because he kicked heaven's ass and was pretty much on a nearly unstoppable rampage, but considering this Goku's nature, I'm uncertain that part of the original story applies here.

That's true, but it's a consistent feature of Saiten Taisei's behaviour, and I can imagine him rampaging in heaven if (when) something happens to Konzen. So I'd say the original story probably still applies.

[wk-recomend.livejournal.com]

I don't think of Nii/Ukoku as particularly evil. I think he's driven by knowledge. Think Jekyll and Hyde or any other number of scientists who have gone against the social norm of so-called good in order to further their knowledge. After all, in our history, disecting a human body was considered filthy, sinful and evil. And yet, in today's ideals, we wouldn't have the medical or biological knowledge of human beings that we do today without those so-called "evil" scientists.

To me, that is Nii. He is niether good nor evil, he just is in the pursuit of knowledge.

As for Koumyou...I'd have to go back and re-read, but my impression of him was rather similar to that of Nii. I think Koumyou was neither good nor evil, but was, perhaps, just more personable than Nii. But, I don't know what drives Koumyou, if it is anything that we can comprehend at the moment.

And really, in order to be either good or evil, one would have to be unbalanced. It takes both, in a way, to be balanced in life. And if you think about the principle goal of Buddhism versus Western monotheastic religions, Buddhism would be considered evil, since it's goal is the "destruction" of the "soul" rather than the infinite "existance" of the "soul". Nirvana is Nothingness, whereas Heaven is Eternal. In Buddhism, enlightenment is to attain Nirvana, therefore Nothingness, therefore, in Western thought, destruction. (And by Western thought, I mean in comparison to the values and beliefs of Western religion versus that of Buddhism, just to clarify).

And while there is a Heaven in Buddhism, it is not the exulted place of amazingness that it is in Western religion. In actuality, though the "gods" have great power and long life, Heaven is more of a hell, as within the cycle of reincarnation, "gods" tend to get stuck there on the path to enlightenment and eventually fall from grace, as it were. Instead of continuing to seek enlightenment, they relish in their power and in their next life, that karma sets them back, and considering how long the gods live, they'll be thrown down into the animal kingdom and almost have to start from scratch. So is Heaven, in this case, really that great when it turns into a dead end and sends you back to the beginning?

And really, in any time and any place with any person, the concept of "good" and "evil" are subjective and not objective. Of course, there are certain actions that are "evil" all of the time, but again, is murder really so bad when one is defending themselves? So there are gray areas to almost every "evil" action.

And with regards to Kanzeon, the Merciful Goddess, mercy doesn't have to be good. After all, a parent punishes their child when their child does something wrong. That is mercy, since you are teaching that child. The child will learn from the punishment and not make the same mistake again (one would hope ^^;; ). Mercy isn't about the short term good, it is about the end result or the long term. Of course punishing a child by spanking or standing in the corner or being grounded or whatever form the punishment takes is not good in and of itself. However, when the child learns and grows from it, that is good.

Was it merciful to imprison a being who would end up without knowledge of why he was imprisoned? Was it more merciful to spare his life than to take it? Mercy is a gray area on the scale of "good" and "evil".

Also, there is also the mythos of Taoism to consider, as the story has influences and references to both Buddhism and Taoism, but I don't know very much about Taoism, though if I recall correctly, there wasn't much emphasis upon "good" and "evil", either.

[rosaleendhu.livejournal.com]

I will shamelessly admit that I enjoyed the Homura arc in the anime. Because of that, and the theory among my RP buddies that Nii wants Sanzo to kill him, I'm wondering if Nii is out there so that Sanzo gets a very clear idea of what he's up against.

I just need to get my lazy butt back to that post and see if there are any translations floating around in it.

[despina-moon.livejournal.com]

Yes - I could see Goku transforming into the Saiten Taisei and reacting like that, also. I was considering the differences, how Monkey was not a berserk killer, but more of "I'm badder than you - how dare you keep those peaches from me!" However, when I started to write all that, I realized well, he was kind of a berserk killer. He was definitely unstoppable. Later, when the priest released him from his prison, he was a changed monkey and totally devoted to the monk.

Not really that far off, from Sanzo's story, is it? Hmm. Now, I'm stating the obvious.

Need more coffee.

[chomiji]

Hmmm, now I'm wondering when was the last time we saw Kanzeon at her gameboard? She used to show up looking pleased or worried or suprised whever something major happened. I may just be forgetting a recent visit with her.

Kanzeon is a major player in Heaven, but not the major player. Not everything is under her control. And no, she doesn't always seem to be nice, but when you're taking the lo-o-ong view, it's hard to see whether the action she's decided to take might not actually be much more merciful than some of the actions she considered and dismissed.

Kanzeon and Nii both play games. Nii and Kami-sama both played games. Kami-sama was not quite Nii's pawn - maybe more of a knight - but Nii was manipulating him. Several people have noted that Sanzo may have needed to be tempered by his misfortunes so that he could meet larger challenges. Is Kanzeon manipulting Nii - most likely by that famous thirst for knowledge - as another challenge to Sanzo, who's the Soul who's on this Journey to Enlightenment? Or is Nii really the ultimate adversary whom Sanzo's been groomed to face?

Jiroushin is shown as Kanzeon's opponent when she plays chess. Who's her real opponent - in the game she's playing with the ikkou?

> wanders off muttering about the Hero's Journey <

I recant!

[puddingcat.livejournal.com]

It was lovely to see you!

Argh, I'd completely forgotten that Ukoku doesn't have a bindi! Right, that being the case, I'll restate my thoughts :)

I think Kanzeon Bosatsu especially is taking the seriously long-term view. Getting th three of them killed & reincarnated, and locking Goku up, weren't *nice*, but will have allowed the ongoing advancement of their souls. I think she could probably have found less painful ways of teaching them the lesson, but chose this because it was either more efficient, or more entertaining.

Ukoku... Ok, if he isn't sanctioned by the gods, I'll definitely accept that he could be "evil", as we use the term.

I did think that he was going for the most entertaining way of showing (our) Sanzo that he did need other people after all, and was enjoying backing him into a corner and pulling him apart to get him there. I thought that if Sanzo died in the process, Ukoku would shrug his shoulders, take the sutra, and accept that Sanzo would get another chance in his next life.

But... All we've been shown of his history revolved around getting more knowledge & power for himself, so he could feasibly be after Sanzo's sutra. He was definitely jealous of the attention that Koumyou gave to Kouryuu. I'm just not sure that the Muten sutra could remove Sanzo from history; I thought it's power was to negate anything thrown at it, not to remove physical things and people from existence.

And as for Koumyou - like I said, I see him as being very Doris Day "Que sera, sera" - not actively interfering in anything (until his death), whatever that caused.

[2metaldog.livejournal.com]

On the whole good/evil thing, I'm reminded of a type of story I heard somewhen. It involves a series of events happening to a young man, that, depending on how you view it, are good or bad. Like he breaks his leg. That's bad, right? Maybe not. By breaking his leg, he was spared from going to the front lines of a war and almost certain death. The story illustrates over several incidents that what, at first blush appears bad, may not actually be so depending on what your view is.

Considering that a dozen people can see the same thing and have 12 different perspectives of it, I'd put forward that the characters in Saiyuki are the same. Depending on where you're standing, they are good or bad and its simply your experience and perceptions at that very moment that colour how you view them. For example....

Is Goku bad or good?

If you are the other gods in Heaven and it's friends and family of yours that he kills when he goes on his rampage (assuming Saiyuki is following The Monkey storyline), then he is very bad (possibly evil?) and deserved much worse than being imprisoned under a mountain for 500 years. If you are Sanzo and company and Goku saves your bacon from a youkai trying to bash your brains in, he's good (possibly the best thing since sliced bread). Who's right? Both? Neither? I think this kind of reasoning applies to the majority of characters in Saiyuki. Perception and what side of the fence you're standing on is everything.

Yes, certain characters do rather nasty things. Some are more obviously nasty than others. Nii is a good example of the obvious nasty. He's right upfront with the way he screws around with people for his own agenda. Koumyou is a not so obvious one. There is no reasonable explanation for him falling to simple youkai attacks unless he did it on purpose and he had to know how that would devastate Sanzo. We still don't know why he did it.

Re: I recant!

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

Heeee! I don't think you have to recant - I think it's a possible interpretation of what Ukoku is doing, even if he is heretical and chakra-less, and it's really interesting - I mean, look at the amount of long comments the idea provoked.

It could be that Ukoku doesn't actually know what will happen when he pits his sutra against Sanzo's? For him it might be pure discovery. I do think he was jealous to some extent, but I don't think it's enough for him to be driven to play this long game with Koumyou. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me like Ukoku's lust for something new, new knowledge or experiences or magic, will drive him to do anything.

I definitely think Kanzeon enjoys the popcorn value of the whole thing. Also, they're learning useful lessons! It's a bonus.

[andmydog.livejournal.com]

Wellll...

I don't believe that Ukoku is trying to get Sanzo to kill himself. I think that he's interested to see if he will, but that's not quite the same thing. Ukoku is the kind of guy who doesn't hesitate when he wants something, so if he wanted Sanzo dead, Sanzo'd be dead already.

But that's not how the bet goes, you see.

The bet was Koumyou versus Ukoku (and dammit, I could be a lot more specific than that, but all I have is scans, and I can't remember where their conversation is!). Ukoku's already seen that Koumyou was the self-sacrificing sort, and now I think he's trying to find out if Sanzo is the same... if he'd give his life to undo all the pain he's caused everyone in the past couple years. (Of course, the answer is "no, fuck you, now die", but the question has to be asked! Science demands queries, after all.)

Because even though Koumyou smiled a lot, and was fatherly to Kouryuu, and Zen and tranquil and all that, he was still a bastard of the finest Zen bastard tradition. I mean, here's this teenage kid, and he's smart, and really strong, and almost entirely amoral, and all he really wants is to get eaten (interpret how you will). So what does Koumyou do (in between moonlit nights of sake drinking (from a single cup omg)? He bets his son. Morality never enters into it.

But love does, which is why neither Koumyou nor Ukoku is a complete bastard. I mean, there's one thing that Kenyuu wants. One thing, and then there's Koumyou, who's all zen and unattached, and what do you get the guy who holds nothing? How about the one thing you want? How sweet is that? So Koumyou dies, and Sanzo gets sent out to power up on his quest. It isn't a guarantee that he'll kill Ukoku. It's what they both want, but a) Ukoku isn't just going to lie back and think of England. He's going to fight back, and b) if there's one shining moral of this story, it's that clinging to anything too hard will fuck your shit up.

[andmydog.livejournal.com]

Either that, or he's disappointed in how easy Genjo was to drop, and he's thinking that, if he had killed the monkey, Genjo's rage would be mighty like a mighty thing, and he'd be all Hulk Smash on Ukoku.

...But he's probably afraid. Even when all you want is to die, after, what, ten years? It's easy to get attached to this whole living thing.

[lady-ganesh.livejournal.com]

I don't think so, because Sanzo's clearly pulling on the "Sanzo-ikkou" thing.

And I think he likes winning.

[lady-ganesh.livejournal.com]

It never occurred to me that Nii might NOT be the major villain in the series, but that would certainly be a very interesting twist.

I've been wondering that too-- if Nii's just a midboss after all.

Now the question is, did Nii/Ukoku plan Koumyou's death, or was it outside of his calculations?

I've always thought of Koumyou's death as a Queen's sacrifice to protect the King. Which with Nii playing chess all the time works pretty well for me.

[cicer.livejournal.com]

Augh! I am in the middle of something and haven't got the time to type out and organize all my thoughts on this matter. I shall return and comment more, but I just want to toss out this idea re Kannon's particular brand of 'mercy': one of the main mythological aspects of a bodhisattva is that they have reached enlightenment but chose not to enter Nirvana and instead help others to reach enlightenment too. Obviously, Saiyuki plays with the concepts of enlightenment and heaven a bit, but I think this idea fits with Kannon rather well. She meddles with the lives of the people on earth, yes, but that seems to me to fit in with her position as a bodhisattva. We've been lead to believe she's doing this strictly for her own entertainment, but perhaps that's not so. I think it's possible she has a plan in mind, and is nudging everyone along toward a particular goal she's chosen. And if her goal is to get all of them 'enlightened', that would make a lot of sense, considering her status as a bodhisattva.

Of course, this opens up whole other realms of possibility as to what would happen if the Ikkou ever did reach enlightenment. Would they reascend to heaven? Would they become bodhisattvas themselves? Would they choose to stay on the 'wheel' and keep getting reincarnated? I don't know.

Ack, this got sort of long anyway. Must dash, will comment more later!

[lady-ganesh.livejournal.com]

No, we haven't seen her in a while, you're right.

[lady-ganesh.livejournal.com]

I think he's trying to find out if Sanzo is the same... if he'd give his life to undo all the pain he's caused everyone in the past couple years. (Of course, the answer is "no, fuck you, now die", but the question has to be asked! Science demands queries, after all.)

That's an interesting take, too.

[lady-ganesh.livejournal.com]

In the original Journey, they all go back to Heaven. Of course, Tripitaka was a vegetarian there, too. I've always suspected they'd get the offer and say 'fuck you.'

[andmydog.livejournal.com]

It makes sense to me that Ukoku would be pushing every button of Sanzo's he can, not only because it's funny, but also to see how much like Koumyou he is. Are you unattached, are you self-sacrificing, can you debate theology, are you physically strong, are you mentally strong...

And for fuck's sake, Team Brain Trust, now would be a great time for you to come flying to the rescue!