frog princess

Well, I don't think it was *supposed* to be a death-match.

Hehehe:-) On rereading it, it's clear that it's a contest of skill and power. It's Kenyuu who chooses to make it something else, although the suggestion is that he's hoping Goudai will kill him.

it certainly seems possible, even likely.

I think he knew something, mostly because his act of making such a young boy a sanzo smacks of desperation.

mistressrenet points out below that foreknowledge of death is in keeping with Buddhist legend, which makes it likely too.

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wildelamassu.livejournal.com

The Sanzo title, I believe, is passed on by convention when the current holder dies, but I don't think it has to be that way.

I'm almost sure Koumyou suspected something, if not knew outright. I also think Ukoku had a major hand in the killing--either because he couldn't let someone else have power over him (via understanding) or because of sutra-y things. Minekura will reveal? *G*

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yukie1013.livejournal.com

My dorktheory re: Ukoku and Koumyou si that Ukoku sent flunkies to RETRIEVE the sutra but not kill Koumyou.

...Mostly because I like the mental image of Ukoku taking the sutra reverently, almost lovingly, and then messily fragging the murderous errandboys.

*needs psychiatric help*

*NOT FROM NII*

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*snerk*

I just can see Nii fondling the sutra, oblivious to the screams. He's single minded like that, I think:D

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Minekura will reveal?

*twitches with anticipation*

The clues do point to Ukoku being involved somehow, especially since reading jttr's summary of the June Reload.

But then I think of Ni Jienyi and the way he's so spiritually lost, like he doesn't care about anything anymore and I wonder if he really wanted Koumyou to die.

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yukie1013.livejournal.com

I think Goudai was fucking batshit. Deathmatches are...not teh Buddhist.

I suspect that Gou' was from a rather warriory family and the idea of dying in bed as a feeble old fart freaked Gou' out, so he called a deathmatch. That would give him a warrrior's death, and also soother his concerns about his students - of they can defeat HIM then surely they can fight against any other trial that comes their way.

I suspect Koumyou knew what was going to happen also.

But I also suspect that the sutra has a hand in choosing its possessor. They're not just scrolls - they're living vital Words with a capital W, as in 'in the beginning was the'.

So while Kenyuu got the sutra, he isn't truly ready to bear/carry/comprehend it. His eyes aren't really open, ergo no bindi/chakra mark. He's not a true Sanzo; he's the sutra's transportation.

If he woke up and got a clue and stopped being a jackass it might choose him for real and he'd get the damn dot but...yes.

I...suspect Kenyuu has it baaaaad for Koumyou as well. He seems to pick on Kouryuu on purpose. XD Jealous little punk.

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You make some really good points -- particularly about Goudai possibly being from a warrior's family, he rather has that "look" from stylized woodblock prints of samurai, no? That can't be coincidence.

Also a very good point that a sanzo would have to be able to fight well enough to survive and keep the sutra out of the wrong hands -- even if sutra-stealing hasn't become such an immediate and widespread threat yet.

But I also suspect that the sutra has a hand in choosing its possessor. They're not just scrolls - they're living vital Words with a capital W, as in 'in the beginning was the'.

This is really fascinating too. I've often wondered about sanzos' relationshps with the sutras (ack, not like that, mind out of the gutter), and how connected they are at what level. And yet it's not a connection such that Sanzo is always consciously aware of the sutra (in the way that he usually seems to know intuitively where Goku is and whether he's ok), because in the desert scorpions arc he has to ask the scorpion youkai where it is and then search through the chest of drawers for it.

He's not a true Sanzo; he's the sutra's transportation.

I agree. There's been no sign that Ukoku could actually activate his sutra, either... which may be why he got frustrated and stopped being a sanzo for a while. For the resurrection, Nii may not only need the sutras, but a real sanzo, ie, Sanzo, to activate them... which makes me think once again that KARose was really on to something in "In My Father's House."

it might choose him for real and he'd get the damn dot

I think the chakra gets referred to as the mark of Heaven's Chosen or something like that, which would imply that it's Heaven rejecting Ukoku, but I like the idea that it's the sutra that chooses its sanzo.

Which now has me thinking about it in terms of a symbiotic relationship of some kind... which may be why a sanzo can't outlive being a sanzo anyway.

I've got more thoughts on this brewing, and some I'd already been thinking of last night, that I should just post in my own journal, I think. *^_^* But right now, gotta run for an appointment.

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The idea of the sutra choosing its owner is fascinating. It also gives me a touch of fandom whiplash because it puts me in mind of the one ring in The Lord of the Rings. XD

But yes, Ukoku's lack of dot means that the sutra hasn't 'chosen' him, or that heaven has rejected him as kintail says below - that makes perfect sense to me.

I...suspect Kenyuu has it baaaaad for Koumyou as well.

I have to say, I love that idea. I think Koumyou is the only person he's ever been honest with.

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I think Kenyuu gets so fascinated by Koumyou because he really can't figure out how to read him, including on things like if Koumyou's coming on to him or not. We see a lot of Nii taking great pleasure from being able to read people and push their buttons, so the fact that he couldn't begin to read Koumyou in that way probably set Koumyou up as the One Greatest Challenge he was really searching for.

Co-incidently, I was just thinking last night about whether the previous Sanzo must die in order for the new one to inherit the scripture -- thoughts mostly triggered by the scans and translation/summary of the latest Zero Sum, where (minor spoilers)...

Sanzo is explaining the sutra to the rest of the ikkou and suddenly breaks off after beginning to say how the sutra is inherited, as if something just occured to him. Perhaps he was realizing that Koumyou must have known he was going to die when he named Kouryuu a Sanzo -- not just naming him his intended successor.

Also, though, Sanzo's also been just explaining that when two or more sutras are gathered in one place, their power increases exponentially, which is why there are supposed to be five Sanzos scattered far apart so that the sutras don't get too close to each other (and why the plan to gather all 5 sutras in one place for the resurrection is earth-threateningly dangerous even without he resurrection aspect). But Koumyou had two. So maybe he was trying to give just one to Kouryuu -- and then would have sent him away?

Don't stop thinking, your thoughts are interesting!

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Perhaps he was realizing that Koumyou must have known he was going to die

And doesn't that open up a whole new can of worms, if that's what he's realised. Because why would he know? I cn't help thinking of Ukoku's last visit as some kind of harbinger, especially because we find out Ukoku visited Hazels' master just before he died, too.

I've just been over to Jttr to read the summary of the new issue, btw, and I can't wait to see it in translation.

I really like the things you say about sutras and the relationship they have with their sanzo. I've never considered it much before but what you say is absolutely fascinating. I don't think Mouyou would have given a sutra to Kouryuu at such a young age unless it had been absolutely necessary. And it's interesting that Koumyou, who has a sutra and is very very strong (a s Kenyuu's reaction to his bruises shows), is killed by what appear to be fairlyt standard looking youkai. But of course that could be because he puts all his energy into protecting Kouryuu rather than saving himself.

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But of course that could be because he puts all his energy into protecting Kouryuu rather than saving himself.

And according to the one of the recent flashbacks (I can't remember where, in Burial or after it though), it seems Koumyou sealed Kouryuu's movement (to keep Kouryuu from trying to fight?) -- why not seal the movement of the youkai attacking him? There's definitely something strange going on there with how Koumyou chose to react. And I really need to go back and reread things.

I posted more thoughts on sanzos and sutras in my journal here (http://www.livejournal.com/users/kintail/27011.html).

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Oh, great post. I enjoyed it hugely although haven't had a chance to comment yet.

There's defintely something odd going on there with how Koumyou almost chooses to die. I'm glad you think so too.

ps, sorry for the typos in my earlier replies- can I blame my hangover, please?

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No need to apologize. *excuse to use my TypoKou icon*

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I love TypoKou so much! I've often wondered how youkai get anything done at all. Let's hope none of them wear contacts :D

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TypoKou is from the brilliant mind of

new_kate, who also made this EmbarassedKou icon.

Let's hope none of them wear contacts :D

Ow ow ow *cringe*

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aramuin.livejournal.com

That moment is one of my favourite Koumyou moments. It's sugguestive of a far more cunning and insightful intellect behind the gentle geniality that most people see. Koumyou in general is just a wonderful character (~~and I can soo see why Sanzo adored him.~~)

As for the transistion of sanzos - Koumyou carried two sutras, right? He might have been planning on passing one on to Sanzo and keeping the other until he passed on in the fullness of time. The whole title thing seems to have been a gesture to remind the monks that Koryuu is his successor and is damn well going to be accorded respect.

Also, since the sutras are obviously weighty, passing one on might extend Koumyou's life-span. And certainly he seems to have a lot to live for in the Burial Arc.

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I'm completely in love with Koumyou. I do hope there's more of him at some point.

I like your idea about passing on a sutra and it extending his life span, like the sutra makes you pay a price for carrying it. Maybe they all exact a price on the sanzos, in different ways.

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In no particular order: I think Koumyou knew he was going to die, but I think he had originally planned to name Genjo before he died-- having two sutras is a big responsibility and I think he wanted to give Genjo the experience of carrying just one at first.

As far as I can tell Sanzos choose their successor and then Heaven gives the chakra mark of approval. I think they all know when they're going to die-- that's in keeping with a lot of Buddhist legend.

I thought he was just succeding Gou', not becoming a Sanzo in that arc. Am I remembering it wrong?

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You're right-- Goudai's duel was to choose the successor for his scripture, so Kenyuu isn't actually made a sanzo but he becomes the successor in that arc.

It seemed to me like Goudai knew he was ill. Either that or, like Koumyou appeared to do, he had some sort of foreknowledge.

I think he had originally planned to name Genjo before he died

That seems likely. I wonder if having more than one sutra affects you physically? Koumyou does look very tired in the Ukoku arc, yet is also incredibly strong.

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I wonder if having more than one sutra affects you physically?
I don't know. I'm not sure you can speculate that from his being tired in the Ukoku arc, because he seems to be in pretty good shape in Genjo's flashbacks of him, and he's quite a bit older then.

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because he seems to be in pretty good shape in Genjo's flashbacks of him

And just pretty, too. XD

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Indeed. He does look older in the flashbacks, I noticed-- skinnier too. Also, while we're on the subject:

Pour vous, and from a Genjo flashback. XD

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Eeeeeeee! My very own Gay Koumyou! Thank you. XD

*hugs icon and Renet*

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Thank you! The 'gay' is a little smaller but I really wanted his pipe in the crop. XD ::hugs back::

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Small but perfectly formed. *g* Koumyou's ~~hash~~pipe is an essential item, methinks.

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Yes, exactly. Stoner chic n' all. XD

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akisawana.livejournal.com

Koumyou reminds me somewhat of Gandalf. What with the massive amounts of patience and all. And the pipe. Definetly the pipe.

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