frog princess

That's an intriguing idea - giving Sanzo a preview of what he's up against? Yeah, I can actually see him being so oddly twisted as to do that.

From:

I wonder if we'll ever find out? In a way it's more fun to speculate.

On of my favourite things about Saiyuki is that which you described above - the line between good and bad and heroes and villains is beautifully obscured, and purposely.

We still don't know very much about Koumyou and his motivations, it's true. Maybe one day, I hope.

From:

I can't remember seeing her recently either, hmmmm. Interesting thoughts, thank you. I suppose everything she does-- or every game play she makes?-- is ultimately merciful, which gives a far deeper perspective on everything that happens.

From:

Hmmm, yeah, good points - I wonder how much power the Emporer had/has, and what role Kanzeon actually plays in Heaven? She's more like an interested observer... literally.

Koumyou just baffles me the more I think and read other people's thoughts about him.

From:

stalkerbunny.livejournal.com

*nods*
It is one of the most basic reactions to fear things you don't understand.
It's the same in that part in the end of Burial where Nii is looking at the full moon and says something about Koumyou still not being gone, I really can't tell what he feels about that either.
Especially if it was Nii that caused Koumyou's death, is Nii miffed because it ultimately didn't do him any good, or just dislikes admitting he succeeded. I suppose both could be true, anyways.

But what if we can't trust Genjyo's and Nii's estimation of Koymyou. Clearly they saw him as someone who was strong and...I'd almost say a bit godlike, in a sense. Genjyo perhaps more as a parent (althought at times a troublesome, embarrassing parent) and Ukoku would probably have a more cynical view.
But what if they both simply overestimated him?
Somehow that seems farfetched even to me thought, so I'll just throw it as an idea.

Sorry, I really can go on and on about things =_=;

From:

Yeah, the Emperor seems more like a figurehead, though an influential one.

I think the first step with Koumyou-- and maybe the hardest-- is to stop seeing him through the Western, good-n-evil, Judeo-Christian eyes those of us born in our respective cultures first see everything with. He's much more like a Zen master, and those have always been hard for Westerners to grasp, even without having the extra 'but what's Minekura up to?' matter to solve.

From:

Which then leads up to the question of if Li Touten's around somewhere else, and what he's doing.

From:

Which begs the question: How nonattached is the Merciful Goddess hirself?

From:

~~Hells, I have no Sanzo icon~~

I think there are hints that Sanzo-- if he lives so long-- might Koumyou out a bit. We see him under, really, tremendous stress-- he doesn't seem so volatile in the flashbacks of life at the temple. Koumyou grabbing Kenyuu's arm so tight it leaves marks always had a bit of Genjo in it to me.

And I've noticed, balding or no, Sanzo's hair keeps getting longer. Trivial, but in Minekura's world a little visual thing can mean a lot.

From:

I don't know if I would call Sanzo a gift for Ukoku, since Koumyou isn't really the giving type... but I'd call him a potential gift. Nobody else is able to kill Ukoku, and here Koumyou has this kid who probably could, when he gets older, so...

The sun annihilates the night completely, but the moon can still be seen if you look carefully.

Yes, exactly!

From:

Yup! I mean, "Congrats! You passed the test, and now you get to come to Heaven forever" doesn't get any reply other than the fuck you Lady G suggested, and maybe some shooting. How many times have they announced, all of them, that the only side they're on is their own? Fuck enlightenment, and Heaven is just one big monastery, a place for hiding from the world. And where's the fun in that?

From:

I did wonder that too, especially as we see Nataku sitting motionless/unconscious at one point in the main Saiyuki story. Is it vol 9? If Nataku is no longer acting as the heretical killing prince or whatever, then Li Touten won't have the leverage to stay in power.

Also, maybe Goujun found a way to get rid of him.

From:

Yes, this is the hard part, and when I try I always feel how much I am a product of Western culture.

From:

I suppose Kanzeon could've imprisoned him partly to keep him safe from Heaven's machinations, as there was a hint that Goku could also be used to do Heaven's killing. Although I can also imagine him rampaging if anything happens to Konzen. Or Tenpou, or when he finds out about Kenren.

From:

Wow this is certainly a lot of food for thought! I'm totally on

cicer tack re enlightenment et al. I'm not going to speculate on what anyone's true motivations are, but I feel quite strongly that Saiyuki is a vehicle through which Minekura is trying to explore the nature and necessity of attachment, in the Buhhdist sense of the word. Attachment, being possibly one of the strongest Buddhist tenants, is the source of all grief. Life is a struggle, then you die. It's not supposed to be some kind of Emo catch-phrase; it really means that all struggle is futile because the result is the same.

Coming from that direction, a lot of the broader themes throughout the story makes sense - particularly (at least to me) the Komyou/Ukoku debate. Komyou is the sleeper under the tree - he's reached Nirvana signified by being willing to give up his life, because he wasn't attached to it to start with. With that in mind, Ukoku is not so much an evil priest as a failed one, having entirely missed the point of why one would become a Buddhist in the first place. Which is why he has the power of a Sanzo and none of the sanction.

And if he's failed, then I think he's never going to beat Genjo no matter how good he is, because in a lot of ways Genjo is far more enlightened - he might seem like a cranky bitch, but he has a much firmer grasp on what non-attachment means. Of course, he's kind of made up his own rules, but he's actually a pretty good Buddhist - if you ignore the killing bad guys part.

Hey! Maybe the whole point is to make Ukoku a better Buddhist, thereby saving the world as an accidental byproduct! Yeah! That's my theory and I'm going with it! ;)

Edited Date: 2008-06-03 10:56 am (UTC)

From:

Excuse me, but:

WHAT FUNDOSHI RUMOR????

From:

andmydog? WORD. Srsly.

From:

You know, Sanzo's undercrackers!

I can't remember where it is, but apparently Gojyo and Hakkai have this theory that he wears fundoshi under his robe.

From: (Anonymous)

Hmm. I think she's nonattached insofaras she'd let Sanzo die; she just takes more notice of what's going on with his life than with others'. Some of that's probably because he's a Sanzo priest, but I doubt she'd have taken such a personal interest in him (or in Gojyo...) if she hadn't been related.

From:

puddingcat.livejournal.com

Sorry - that was me :)

From:

puddingcat.livejournal.com

Would they get a choice? I was hoping (and hoping, and hoping) that the end of Gaiden would have them all cast down into the mortal world without actually having to, y'know, die or anything. Wouldn't a next life in Heaven be similar? They'd die as their current incarnations, and be reborn as kami with no memory of their past lives? Or isn't that how it works? *knows next to nothing*

Mind you - I definitely agree that Gojyo wouldn't want to be a paper pusher in Heaven for anything!

From:

puddingcat.livejournal.com

Hee, the more I read this debate, the less I agree with myself!

Yes. Improving Ukoku *and* (our) Sanzo's lives, with saving the world as collateral fixage :) IAW your thoughts on attachement as well; I think Sanzo's got too attached to the idea of non-attachment, and he needs a kick in the pants (seemingly to come courtesy of Ukoku) to snap him out of it.

From:

One of the best examples of Zen masters I've found (by way of explaining the kinds of bastards they could be) is the story One-Finger Zen. I don't have my book here (they're all in storage) so here's Wiki's summary:

Juzhi Yizhi, a 9th century Chinese Zen master, raised his finger whenever he was asked a question about Zen. A boy attendant began to imitate him in this way. When anyone asked the boy what his master had preached about, the boy would raise his finger.

Juzhi heard about the boy's mischief. He seized him and cut off his finger. The boy cried and ran away. Juzhi called and stopped him. When the boy turned his head to Juzhi, Juzhi raised up his own finger. In that instant the boy was enlightened.

There's also these! (http://www.101zenstories.com/) "Incense Burner" is my favourite, and this one (http://www.101zenstories.com/index.php?story=29) is required reading for this (http://community.livejournal.com/lol_buddha/824.html#cutid1) macro.

From:

Here! (http://jttr.livejournal.com/13199.html)

From: