The Fur Chalice

[louiselux]

I did want to try to talk about this in more detail, but everything ended up sounding like a poor double entendre (I have a problem with pussy!). So, a simple question: what words do you use for vagina when writing erotica?

Humour me, I'm curious. I'm also starting to think there's a serious lack of choice of words that are not silly.

Comments

[gehayi.livejournal.com]

You know, there are no good words for girl bits. There are clinical words (vagina), double entendres (pussy), euphemisms ("her delicate flower" and "tunnel o'love" spring to mind) and words I've never heard used except as an insult (like cunt).

There's nothing to work with. You end up sounding coarse, clinical or as if you'd swallowed a Harlequin romance.

I think this is part of why I write m/m slash and gen, never femslash or het.

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

You end up sounding coarse, clinical or as if you'd swallowed a Harlequin romance.

Exactly! Or, as I do, working hard to not have to describe it in too much detail, which gets frustrating.

[mistressrenet.livejournal.com]

I use crap like "he slid his fingers into moist heat" a lot. Oh, for a good word.

[musesfool.livejournal.com]

I've ended up with cunt, though I dislike it immensely. I'm told it's much less fraught in the UK than it is here in the US, and since I've been writing mostly HP, it seemed necessary to use.

One of my favorite little things about Firefly is that quim is used in canon, so I use that now. And also nethers is canon. So you can get away with odd archaic terms there you can't in other fandoms.

but yes, this is a problem I find when writing het sex and girlslash, and I usually just end up writing around it most of the time.

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

Its use is still somewhat fraught here too; it has the connotation of 'worst thing you can call someone'. It's also becoming used more often, but still largely as an abusive term for a person. On the other hand, I quite like the power it has to be shocking and coarse.

[musesfool.livejournal.com]

Interesting. I was told it was a much more casual insult, not much worse than most of the others.

Obviously it depends a lot on character, too. There are some characters I can't imagine saying it, and others for whome it seems the most natural term. I do use folds sometimes, but I've found clit is easiest and most direct, and the rest of it can be elided with "slick flesh" or "inside" etc.

As I said, the use of 'quim' in Firefly canon (even though it was used as an insult) makes me very happy. It's a word I think ought to come back into vogue for just this purpose.

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

Well, I think it's fractionally less shocking than it used to be, but it's still very much taboo for many people I think.

Quim is a really nice word, I agree, and feels almost totally neutral to me. I just wish it didn't sound so archaic.

[musesfool.livejournal.com]

I just wish it didn't sound so archaic.

Well, that's why we have to bring it back, so it starts to sound natural again! *g* I'm also fond of "swive" but that's gone forever, I think.

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

Hee, yes! Also, jamjar below gave me a bit of insight into how differently Americans and Brits might use cunt as an insult. In the US- and please correct me if I've got this wrong-- it seems to be used as a hugely demeaning term *particularly at women*,ie, you're nothing but a worthless bit of meat. Whereas in the UK it's not normally used like that. Prick and arsehole have the same connotations. It's used to mean someone who is actively being a bastard, and is often used against men. That doesn't mean it's not still a mysogynistic hate word here, because it clearly still is, but somehow it feels less awful than the US useage.

[musesfool.livejournal.com]

In the US- and please correct me if I've got this wrong-- it seems to be used as a hugely demeaning term *particularly at women*,ie, you're nothing but a worthless bit of meat. Whereas in the UK it's not normally used like that. Prick and arsehole have the same connotations. It's used to mean someone who is actively being a bastard, and is often used against men.

*nod nod nod*

Okay, yes, here it's very much used against women, and anecdotally, most women I know find it the most offensive word to use against a woman, so much so that I, who swear like a sailor, can barely manage to type it without cringing or wanting to apologize, though I've forced myself when writing porn.

When I first read "The Barrytown Trilogy" it was there on every page, and I was like, "OMG I CAN'T READ THIS" but I got used to it in that context, and I think that may be where I kind of picked up the idea that it was just another insult in the UK.

[wedjateye.livejournal.com]

I missed 'quim' in Firefly - who used it and in what context?

[musesfool.livejournal.com]

In the episode "The Message," one of the bad guy cops (I think the one played by the guy from that show I never watched Richard Burgi) says to the post office guy: "You are an ugly looking little quim." (transcript here (http://www.twiztv.com/scripts/firefly/season1/firefly-115.htm)) I mean, okay, it's used as an insult, but it's used, and that's good enough for me.

[wedjateye.livejournal.com]

Thanks for that - it would have bugged me like crazy (I missed a word? How could I have missed a word?) being just a tad obsessive.

[musesfool.livejournal.com]

Heh. I've gotten used to pointing people at it, because most folks are like, "Who said what to what now?" when I mention it.

[elyndys.livejournal.com]

I don't. *shudder* All the commonly available ones just horrify me, and so on the (admittedly rare) occasions when I write het or yuri, I usually end up skirting the issue while trying not to be a euphemism-using nancy. As it's so very seldom I'm in that situation, though, I'm not sure as to my success rate. ^^'

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

I tend to use vague terms, like 'inside' or something along those lines, which is okay but I feel like I would like to use an actual noun at some point.

[elyndys.livejournal.com]

Me too. But then, I used to use terms like that back when I started writing yaoi, because I was nervous of using words like "cock". Ahh, those were innocent times~!

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

Hee, yes, exactly. I faintly remember that time too.

Also, Gojyo icon!

[thornsilver]

I am scared to admit, but "cunt" is the best one by far. Of all the other scary choices.

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

I don't really have much of a problem with cunt, and would sort of like to rescue it from being used as a mortal insult. However, those connotations are likely bound up in its appeal, somehow. But it seems like the natural equivalent to cock.

[myroughdraft.livejournal.com]

Spam purse! JUST KIDDING.

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

As a suitable container for a spam javelin?

[myroughdraft.livejournal.com]

AND LUNCHEON MEAT TRUNCHEONS!

[assume-a-virtue.livejournal.com]

I have no words, 'cause I'm.. bad at writing erotica. So I offer you this (http://makesmewannadie.livejournal.com/39308.html#cutid1), a collection of assorted vocabulary used in sex scenes, and a relative scale of how hot most people consider them.

I stumbled across it a while ago, and it is VERY VERY useful, so I clung to the link like a limpet.

[assume-a-virtue.livejournal.com]

Note also that there are no words for vagina in the left-most column. 'Cunt', however, does show up in the second-to-left.

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

Thanks! I jhad a feeling there had been something like this in the past. You're right, it's really really useful. *g*

[assume-a-virtue.livejournal.com]

^_^ Glad to help!

[fruufoo.livejournal.com]

Wow, some of the popular ones are really not what I consider hot. :D

Having said that, I like cunt. It's such a brief word that it has a bit of a bite to it, and sounds kinda cheeky.

I tend to vary my anatomical words depending on which character I'm writing about and which POV the story's from. It can help a lot if you're not really comfortable with any of the alternatives and have to pick one. ;)

[scribblemoose]

*is still giggling at 'fur chalice'*

I usually use cunt, which I personally feel quite comfortable with (I had a long reasoning with myself about feminist reclamation of language at some point which helped). Otherwise I go for euphemisms but that's a bit like the pronoun nightmare that is yaoi/yuri so argh.

*suympathises*

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

I'm kind of ambivalent about cunt. I'd like to do the reclaiming thing with it, but still, I don't feel totally comfortable using it all the time. Maybe when I want a word with a lot of impact... and it depends on the character POV too. Most of all, probably.

[hibem.livejournal.com]

I'd like to be able to like 'cunt.' I mean, really, it's fun in casual conversation, but, to me it will never be sexy because to me it resonates too strongly with the way men (or other insensitive and gynephilic individuals) talk about women like pieces of meat. And there's the whole question over my outrage about the disparity between calling someone a dick and calling them a cunt thing. This is not a question with an easy answer, and I'm guilty of writing some horrifyingly purple het myself, so... :shrug: The way I settled questions of male anatomy for myself was by reading a lot of gay porn and deciding what I liked and what I didn't. Though it's still most often a question of the lesser of two silly things.

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

I have a similar problem with it, really, which mostly comes down to the disparity of insult thing. It's not right! That said, I am increasingly able to dissassociate that side of it, and do see it as a sexy word in some contexts.

[tygrrlyli.livejournal.com]

I've seen and heard: lips, sheath, folds

All of those cause me to start laughing. Then again, most H-work of any type causes me to start snorting with laughter.

But, technically, sheath is absolutely correct. Considering that vagina is the Latin word for "sheath." ...Which made translations in Latin class pissing funny (e.g. "He placed his sword* in his vagina and ejaculated across the room")

*sword is not the Latin word, but I forgot the Latin word.

Wow, tangent much. Anyway, I've never written femslash or anything but good luck with finding a bunch of usable words ^_^

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

Thanks *g*

I've used lips, although there is something about it that is verging on the not-right. It's better than labia though. And 'sheath' is just-- no!

[cicer.livejournal.com]

Augh, I hate trying to come up with good terms for female anatomy. I think that's part of the reason I write m/m almost exclusively, and when I do write het, I keep things strictly above-the-waist. There are almost no good words or phrases for 'vagina'. They all sound either clinical or goofy. I too generally go with vague references like her 'opening' or 'inside', etc. Ack.

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

Oh, 'inside' is about the most useful word right now! Seriously. Gah, we need a new word!

[graycastle.livejournal.com]

you know, it's funny that people keep saying that there aren't any good words for female anatomy...because in my opinion, there aren't a lot of good ones for male anatomy, either. any word for genitallia is fraught. cock and dick can be silly sounding if used inappropriately, penis has the clinical thing going on (just like vagina) and don't even get me started on members and poles and things. we're just more used to it because we read/write m/m more than het or f/f. words require use before they can sound commonplace.

for ladies, cunt is great. I also like pussy (heh). "clit" gives one the sense of the area you're speaking about, and, as with m/m sex scenes, it's easy to elide: "she slipped her fingers into her, pushing against the wet folds, sliding against smooth muscle," etc etc etc. it's sometimes hotter, too, I find. if you can't make a word flow naturally, talk around it.

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

Yes, I am big on eliding at the moment as I've not written much het and words for female genitalia are all new to me in that sense. The problem I have with cunt is the negative connotations of taboo swearword, which seems to give it far more weight than it actually should have, in a way cock doesn't.

From My Thesaurus

[car-jack.livejournal.com]

Thought I'd take a look and see what my thesaurus lists for words also meaning vagina 'slang' and here's what it says...

Beard, beaver, box, bush, cassava *never heard of this one*, cat, cherry, bearded clam, cony, cooch, cooze, crack, crease, cunt, dead-end street *never heard of this one, either*, down, fern, fuckhole, fur, gash, hair pie *gross*, honey pot, it, jelly roll, monosyllable *huh?*, muff, nooky, passage, penocha, pink, poontang, pussy, quim, sex, slit, snatch, thatch, twat, Venus mound, Venus flytrap, yoni *eh?*

They had a list for boy parts, too. Wow.

Re: From My Thesaurus

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

Bearded clam - hmmm, that's almost charming! But only almost. Quim is a good word though.

[sinick.livejournal.com]

Had to use the pussy icon for this too. :)

Just wanted to let you know that the title to your post made me look at that scene in the movie where they're transfiguring mice into goblets in an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT LIGHT.

And now, for a musical interlewd: http://www.lyricstop.com/f/foxtrotuniformcharliekilo-bloodhoundgang.html

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

Okay, I dare not click that link as I am at work. *g*

[jamjar.livejournal.com]

I try to avoid, but I usually settle on cunt since, in the UK, although it's used as an insult, it's better than pussy. Cunt is hard, takes no prisoners, is, well, stronger than pussy. Pussy = weak. Cunt = unpleasent bastard. Maybe it's me, but I go for cunt over pussy for that reason. Also, it feels more analagous to cock.

I understand that in the states, cunt and pussy, when used as insults, have pretty much the same meaning (weak).

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

I didn't know that - it's interesting. And it's made me realise that cunt as an insult means someone who is actively a bastard, rather than someone who is passive and a wuss. I tihnk it appeals to me for the same reasons as you, really. And just the way it sounds is satisfying.

[jamjar.livejournal.com]

Yeah. Cunt is active, aggressive whereas pussy is weak, passive. Cunt sounds hard, pussy sounds like a whine.

[jamjar.livejournal.com]

Also, the Online Etymology Dictionary (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=cunt) tells me interesting things, like that the "first known reference in Eng. is said to be c.1230 Oxford or London street name Gropecuntlane, presumably a haunt of prostitutes."

[wedjateye.livejournal.com]

In the film Go Fish (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0109913/) a group of lesbian friends discuss what is the best term to use for vagina. The best they can come up with is 'honey pot'. At least it's friendly and obviously meant to be appealing. Not a term that I see working well in het/femmeslash fic though.

I've hardly written any het - when I have I do the avoidy thing. But I don't usually go for tonnes of specifics in m/m either - I avoid talk of holes etc, because it's a turn off for me. I don't have a problem with clinical words or very specific words in the right context. I dislike 'cunt' - I'm not ready to reclaim something I've heard used offensively my whole life.