Saiyuki poll

[louiselux]

Saiyuki people, it's time for a poll:

So, emungere and I have been pondering these important questions about Sanzo and Hakkai.

[Poll #646083]

Do feel free to elaborate with comments.

Comments

[telophase.livejournal.com]

Sanzo could fall in love.

Whether it would be a mature, adult, healthy kind of love, or whether he could admit he was in love...? That depends a whole lot on whether he manages to grow up. :D

[hydr0phobia.livejournal.com]

Question #1: yes. You just have to hit all his pain buttons and hold all of his, ah, atrocities over his head until he is guilted into a dark corner. Then, prevent each and every one of his subsequent suicide attempts and possibly make a bunch of ridiculous promises that he'll invest in anyway.

Break him down psychologically/emotionally/mentally/etcetera and REBUILD HIM.

...as ridiculous as I sound right now: it could work.


Question #2: sure! He'd just angst hard about it and deal with it in the most irrational manner possible. Or go stand on the shores of that one river at Egypt. Or...whatever. Issues to work through and that lot. Regardless, Sanzo won't change for love! And love won't change for him! Or...yes.

...but really: Sanzo isn't an airless vault when it comes to emotions. He's perceptive enough to see it in other people and he's working through the special sort of stupidity he's got that wouldn't let him see observe those symptoms in himself. I believe that he's a less stupid guy than he was at the beginning of the series--he knows that there are things of which he can't afford to let go. He's handling things maturely and I think he's got issues trusting his own feelings. He has to come to terms with the fact before moving to do anything about it.

When in doubt he will someday ask himself: WWKD? WHAT WOULD KOUMYOU DO!?

...and this comment is crack-filled. APOLOGIES.

-Neo

[myroughdraft.livejournal.com]

1. Hakkai's already his own bitch.

[hibem.livejournal.com]

After what happened when he was his sister's bitch, I doubt he'll allow himself to be put in such a position again.

[indelicateink]

Depends on how much of a bitch we're talking. (I think to some extent, he's already Gojyo's bitch--in the sense that he just can't walk away, he cares about Gojyo, he worries about Gojyo.) But if we're talking bitch in the deeply submissive sense? I think imparfait totally nailed it: Hakkai is his own bitch. Hard to imagine Hakkai taking as much shit from anyone else as he does from himself.

Sanzo... Heh. I think he could do it. I don't know if he would let himself recognize it, embrace it, and/or enjoy it, but I believe he's technically capable of the emotion.

[scribblemoose]

I think Hakkai's actually quite vulnerable to what other people think of him. That's why he appreciates Sanzo and Gojyo's acceptance so much.

And in my little world he is most definitely Gojyo's bitch. ^_~

As for Sanzo - I have an unusually healthy vision of Sanzo, I think. Sure he's screwed up and doesn't like the idea of dependence in any shape or form but he does form attachments *despite* that. Whether he'd allow himself to act on it is another question, but sure, he could fall in love. ♥

[trensaddiction.livejournal.com]

The odd thing about Hakkai is that in some ways, I think he likes to pretend that he could be/is someone else's bitch - if only because he believes that his own choices flawed. Even so, I don't think he could ever actually be someone's bitch, simply because there is too large a part of him that no one ever seems to touch. But that's just my take. =)

As for Sanzo, while I think it's possible he could be in love, he strikes me as soneone for whom the phrase "falling in love" is rather ill-suited. Love, were it to affect him at all, would likely be something he discovered already present in his life, rather than something he fell into of-a-sudden, as it were. It would have to creep up and ambush him, or he'd never admit to it. *laughs* And even then, I'd imagine the denial factor would be huge. After all, this is someone who's fighting like hell for a rather warped definition of non-attachment. Just my two cents. =)

[wildelamassu.livejournal.com]

Nailed it in one!

[kanzenhanzai.livejournal.com]

1. First thing that springs to mind is Spike from Buffy and his comment on being Love's Bitch (I am a dork, shhh).
I can Hakkai being "love's bitch" or just seeing himself in the same light - which is also why I think he'd fight being in love/admitting being in love for as long as he could (see hibem and wildelamassu's coments below).

2. I honestly think Sanzo could fall in love. He knows he's capable of loving (see: father-figure Koumyou), but like Hakkai he'd deny it as long as possible (actually, knowing Sanzo, he probably wouldn't even realize it until it smacked him in the face).


::sigh:: Oh, they're so wonderfully messed up.

[wildelamassu.livejournal.com]

Responding to some of the comments above, if anyone could actually be the bitch in the Gojyo/Hakkai relationship, I'd put my money on Gojyo. While Hakkai depends on him for many, many things, he isn't dependent on him; he's the most solipsistic of the bunch (and angsts about it). Gojyo, on the other hand, has deep-seated abandonment issues--and he's a giver by nature. Look at all the examples from canon where he's sidetracked helping children, or that most telling incident, the gift he would have given his mother. Though Hakkai is an Overwhelmingly Competent Caregiver, one understands from his background and continuing Issues that he is and was a fundamentally hubristic, selfish person (Kanan much?). It is Gojyo, in all his insecurities, his openness, who is entirely likely to be the dependent one, no matter what it looks like when he sleeps with the waitresses. Hell, Hakkai doesn't even have to speak to manipulate him--Gojyo stopped smoking during the convalescence, and he's always getting conned into grocery duty. Kenren cleaning Tenpou's office also comes to mind. (Remember that gorgeous 'Hakkai leaves' story (http://www.livejournal.com/users/runefallstar/60203.html) by runefallstar? It really fits this discussion, IMHO.)

I think Sanzo's love, like Sanzo's respect, is something that must be earned with much time, heel-digging, and scoffing. He isn't the type to admit things, but he also isn't the type to live in absolute denial--he acknowledges things, at least to himself, them when they become unignorable (e.g. attachment v. non-attachment).

Besides, we've seen his capacity to melt (sleeping chibi Goku will do that to you), albeit kicking and screaming all the way. He's such a cat--all gruffness and affection.

[tochira.livejournal.com]

--What she said, about Question 2. XD I do think Sanzo is scarily perceptive when it comes to other people, but rock-stupid about himself (I can understand that, I'm the same way to a certain degree)... but he's getting better! Goku will wear him down yet, ahaha.

and yes, WWKD? Eventually he'll trust than answer instead of grumbling that it only gets people killed.

[tochira.livejournal.com]

*/that/ answer. Argh.

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

I love you.

[janegray.livejournal.com]

Hakkai could never be anybody's bitch. Everybody else are his bitches.

And Sanzo is SO in love with Goku ;)

[andmydog.livejournal.com]

Gonou was Kanan's bitch, and Hakkai, for awhile, was Gonou's bitch. (You could also make the argument that he was Sanzo's bitch up until the Kamisama arc... but he's feeling MUCH better now! [/Night Court reference])

And Sanzo could totally fall in love. He's demonstrated that he can be okay with physical closeness (Yakumo), that he can be generous, even when it doesn't seem to benefit him any - one might almost say selfless (Goku), and that he can form his own interesting form of friendship bond (going after Gojyo in the Kamisama arc. Yeah, he wanted to beat Gojyo's head in, but he still went after him!) That, and he's fascinated by Hazel. Cat with a lazer pointer fascinated (c'mon, Minekura-sensei, you know you want to!)

[devikun.livejournal.com]

I wasn't gonna comment, basically because pretty much everything already said about Hakkai is dead-on and I couldn't have said it any better.

But then I thought, 'Sanzo'...

And I actually have this belief that Sanzo is kind of the only one who actually, really practices love. I'm not as articulate about this topic as I want to be, but I'd like to talk briefly about Saiyuki's serious interludes. Fan-wielding, obscenity-screaming and angst-ridden memories aside; basically Sanzo's a Buddhist, yes? It's a tenant of his faith to have no attachments, but that doesn't mean being incapable of love. It just means that love is not something done out of fear, or a need to feel less alone, or a desire to have someone love you back.

As an example, when Sanzo says 'Do what you like', he actually means 'I love you' (and don't that sound hysterical!), because saying anything else would be a statement of control over another person and therefore self-interested and therefore attached eg 'No, I want you to stay here, or 'Shouldn't you stay here'. So in this way, he's actually being both a very good Buddhist and demonstrating how he loves. It sounds cliche, but he loves enough to able to let others make their own decisions and lead their own lives and he doesn't judge for himself the value of those decisions. It's part of the tension I experience reading Minekura's work, which shows just how challenging non-attachment is (to me at least) - if Goku were to say 'I'm leaving', I know full well Sanzo would say 'Alright' and let him go. Sanzo's the only person - fictional or otherwise - who could actually say that and not mean 'It's not alright but go anyway'.

Sanzo isn't cold, or cruel, or actually inaccesible. I can't cite the instances, but there are examples throughout the manga (and occasionally in the anime, but mostly the parts taken directly from the manga) where he practises exactly what he preaches and shows that he is a feeling, loving individual. If he seems callous or cruel, it's only because the rest of the world is tuned to the attached kind of love, rather than the truly non-attached.

[here endeth the rant. thanks for listening ^^;]

[wk-recomend.livejournal.com]

Sanzo understands Buddhism and Taoism very well, I think. As a result, his apparent "transgressions" are him breaking the rules. For instance, in composing music, there are "rules" you have to follow, but once you know those rules you can break them in order to create beautiful and fulfilling music. However, without knowing the rules, you don't know how to break the rules to the best advantage.

Sanzo most definately fall in love, however, I do not believe that he would become attached. I think once Sanzo finally puts the past behind him, he will have attained the coveted existance of non-attachment. During the journey, he is right there, he just has that one hang up. So, while he could fall in love, he would not become attached to the person he falls in love with.

D

[cicer.livejournal.com]

WWKD? WHAT WOULD KOUMYOU DO!?

I demand a shirt with this on it. Seriously. Koumyou is totally the best guide ever.

But I don't have a Koumyou icon! This is unacceptable!

[cicer.livejournal.com]

Darn it, everybody pretty much already said what I was thinking. But I'll go ahead and toss my own two cents in anyway.

Question #1: Hakkai is his own bitch, definitely. More than any other character in Saiyuki, he's trapped by his past and his feelings about himself and what he's been though. He's completely absorbed in his guilt, grief, and self-hatred to the point where it's almost selfish; he seems obsessed with his pain to the point where he seems to get a perverse kind of enjoyment out of it sometimes. Still, he doesn't need anyone else to punish him or control him; he does all that himself.

I do think he was Kanan's bitch, to some extent, but I think she was his bitch too.They had kind of a creepy, dependent, mutually destructive relationship, in my opinion. In a certain way, they destroyed each other. And if Hakkai learned nothing else from what happened with her, I think he learned that it wasn't safe to belong so completely to another person.

If he was feeling guilty enough or wallowing in self-hatred, I can see Hakkai being someone else's bitch, for a little while. But at the same time, Hakkai would remain totally in control, 'topping from the bottom', so to speak. I don't think Hakkai truly trusts anyone enough to hand himself over that completely, and I do think Hakkai has a whole lot of pride. I really think it would bother him to be in someone else's control. It just wouldn't fly for him. I think he has just as much pride as Sanzo in that respect, he's just not as obvious about it. Plus, he's into the whole self-flagellation thing, so it's not as clear that he has that much sense of self.

Question #2: Yes, I definitely think Sanzo could fall in love. Whether he'd handle it well, or whether it would turn out to be a good relationship is an extremely dubious prospect, but I think he's fully capable of falling in love. He's not emotionally dead, but he is repressed. He tries to keep a very strict control over his 'softer' emotions, and he definitely keeps everyone at arm's length. I don't think he trusts anybody that much to let them love him, at least not at this point in the series. I'm sure he trusts Hakkai, Gojyo, and Goku to help him with the quest, and I think he even trusts them with his life. But I don't think he trusts anyone enough to let his guard down and trust that they won't hurt him. I do think he's capable of learning how to do that, though, and if he trusts the other person enough. Building that trust would be a long hard process, though.

I suspect if he did fall in love with anyone, he'd be in denial for a long damn time. He's so big on not needing anyone but himself, and depending only on himself forever. I think it would bother him to feel like he has an emotional need for anything or anyone but himself. I do think he'd be capable of getting over thatm, though, with the right person and the right impetus. Overall, I think he can love, he just doesn't right now, for all the reasons mentioned above.

[cicer.livejournal.com]

Though Hakkai is an Overwhelmingly Competent Caregiver, one understands from his background and continuing Issues that he is and was a fundamentally hubristic, selfish person (Kanan much?). It is Gojyo, in all his insecurities, his openness, who is entirely likely to be the dependent one, no matter what it looks like when he sleeps with the waitresses.

I completely agree with this assessment, and you said it much better than I did. At several points in the series, I am stuck with how arrogant and absolutely selfish Hakkai can be. He is not a selfless or altruistic person in the least. Even going after Kanan was, in a way, selfishly motivated.

Gojyo, I think, has bigger issues with not feeling deserving or worthy of attention or kindness, and I'm sure most of this traces back to his mother. He's desperately looking for someone to love him, but not really expecting that anyone will. He is a kind person by nature, too, and I don't the he has the capacity to be cruel. At several points in the series it becomes obvious that he gets squeamish harming other people, whether it's women or children, or just someone he feels so for. By contrast, when Hakkai or Sanzo are in a similar situation, they don't hesitate to kill or hurt, doing what they feel needs to be done. Gojyo doesn't have the same capacity.

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

Yes, I can't imagine him going down without a fight, so to speak. :D

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

#1: mmm, it sounds like you have a plan, although a painful one. Poor Hakkai. *clings to him*

#2: I think I'll take WWKD as my new guide to life the universe and everything. I wonder how much he thinks that already, and if there will ever be a change from him being as Koumyou told him to be (non-attached, strong) to actully being *like* Koumyou, who seems to be very accepting of his own attachments. Like you say, that's happening already to Sanzo.

Really no apologies needed - I'm not even sure my reply makes proper sense, but I'll go with it for now. :D

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

That's an incredibly good point. He really is, in so many ways, especially as his youkai side is limited so relentlessly. All that control he has over himself just makes you think he's going to snap one day. And that's going to be fun and/or painful to watch.

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

Hee! I can just imagine Sanzo *saying* something like that: 'I am technically capable of the emotion.' What a romantic.

Hakkai is always in control - I'm not sure how he'd let anyone get into that kind of position of power over him, although I do think Gojyo in a way does have that, just because Hakkai needs him so much.

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

That's such a good point about Hakkai. I tihnk he does need that acceptance, and that's where his vulnerability lies. Physically and mentally he arguably be could be stronger than any of them, but when it comes to his emotions I wonder if he's in control of them at all. I think he relies on Gojyo to point him in the right direction, emotionally, to stop him from going wrong.

I think Sanzo could fall in love too. There's an interesting battle between Sanzo's hardheadedness and his emotional vulnerability, which we especially see when he is thinking of Koumyou.

[mistressrenet.livejournal.com]

Yeah, what you said. XD

[mistressrenet.livejournal.com]

WWKD is the best saying ever. But yeah-- he's definitely respectful of others too-- he's so, so decent to that woman who keeps washing the laundry for her absent lover, and some of that is that he's just polite, but I think to an extent he honors that very much.

[mistressrenet.livejournal.com]

I've sometimes thought that Sanzo loves so much and so deeply that he can't get attached-- that it would destroy him.

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

I think Hakkai does think his choices are flawed, and probably always will and he defintely plays the part of a far meeker person than he actually is, which is why it's always so amusing/scary to see just how thin that layer of pretense really is, and how the others see through it with no trouble at all.

And yes, love would have to ambush him, and even then he'd be wondering what that funny feeling was, and probably putting it down to indigestion.

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

Yeah, Hakkai's experience as love's bitch was so bad the first time round that I can't see him letting it happen again in a hurry, and he might even convince himself he can't love anyone, not like he loved Kanan. Although Gojyo might disagree.

I can imagine Sanzo falling in love too- he would even recognise it as such, I think. Whether he thinks he can love someone without bringing disaster down on their heads is another matter. What happened to Koumyou seems to have defined him so intensely I wonder if he could ever separate love from loss.

[signy1.livejournal.com]

Depends on what you mean by love. If you mean romantic love, hearts and flowers and tender lovemaking... not a chance in hell.

If you mean bone-deep trust given and received, a probable inability to properly conduct one's life without the presence of the partner, a platonic love in the truest sense of the word... yeah, that I can imagine.

I doubt he'd ever use, think, or comprehend the word, but I can see where love would slot quite nicely into his life.