Saiyuki Burial arc

[louiselux]

A thought about Gojyo & Hakkai's Burial arc


I don't think I've ever seen the following idea dealt with fully in a fic-- or maybe I've just missed it-- although it does sit very closely beside the idea of Gojyo's physical prescence being a reminder of Hakkai's sin. I'm not insisting on this, because Gojyo's kindness mitigates it somewhat; we assume that Hakkai moves in with Gojyo because he likes him, but what if he doesn't, at that point?

Hakkai moves in with Gojyo because it's painful to him. Maybe he sees it as yet more penance to have to live with someone who is part youkai and whose daily presence disgusts him. He says that youkai turn his stomach, so surely Gojyo must too, to some extent and that disgust must be something that he can't just switch off.  Kanan died only four months ago [1].  Another thought, that doesn't really fit here - Hakkai brings domestic routines with him that must date back to his life with Kanan. I was thinking that that might be another reason why they're uncomfortable with each other-- subconciously Hakkai is expecting Kanan's responses, likewise, Gojyo picks up on the fact that he's the wrong person. 

[1] Timeline: it took two months for Hakkai to get to Gyumaoh's castle, a month with Gojyo before Sanzo finds him, then three more months until we get to the Burial arc.

Comments

[lebateleur.livejournal.com]

Interesting thoughts, especially the Gojou does/does not equal Kanan angle. OTOH, do you think Gojou really disgusts Hakkai, anymore than he disgusts himself, that is? I think Gojou was the only person Hakkai could live with at that point, because like Hakkai, he's part-human part-youkai. I think their domestic compatibility (of which they should really have none) springs from the fact that they've formed a little not-entirely-human ghetto with each other.

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

Perhaps Hakkai wouldn't let himself think conciously that Gojyo disgusted him. I don't know how much I believe my own theory but it's fair to say that even if he starts off feeling that way about Gojyo, it doesn't last. But yes, when he says to Banri that youkai disgust him, I think he's talking about himself as much as any other youkai.

I think their domestic compatibility (of which they should really have none) springs from the fact that they've formed a little not-entirely-human ghetto with each other.

Yes! I like that idea lots;-)

[lebateleur.livejournal.com]

That said, I like your idea lots too. If you're at all thinking of expanding on it, please do - I'd love to see the results.

Guh, domestic!58. I could gush on about this for ages and ages. But let me just mention how much I LOVE the Burial arc again. I'd really, really, really love to know whether Hakkai thinks of himself as 'ore' all the time or not.

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

I could gush on about this for ages and ages.

Feel free - I'll listen:-)

I'd really, really, really love to know whether Hakkai thinks of himself as 'ore' all the time or not.

From my meagre Japanese studies, I know 'ore' is an informal way of saying 'I' - from what I've heard from the anime, Hakkai is more a 'boku' sort of fellow. Does he think of himself as 'ore' in the Burial arc?

[lebateleur.livejournal.com]

Oh, yes, yes he does, and it sends chills up the spine of every Japanese speaker, let me tell you.

Men usually use one of two 1st person pronouns - boku and ore - in all but the most formal of situtations. Ore is your manly man pronoun - it's masculine and assertive, and can sound downright aggressive depending on the situation. Men who use ore are macho.

Boku is the preppy pronoun. Think of Hakkai's demeanor - calm, polite, deferential, helpful - and you've nailed the type of guy who uses boku. In comparision to the other members of the ikkou, Hakkai always uses boku - except for the scene in Burial where he decides to rescue Gojou. Then he switches to ore and an extremely harsh, rough male speech pattern, and it was scary.

Really scary, although I'm not conveying it very well. It makes readers wonder if the whole boku thing is just an act - has he been thinking of himself as ore all along, and just hiding it? Does it come out when he's a youkai? Was he just pretending to be a boku when he was with Kanan? Creepy stuff.

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

Oh my god. That's amazing and something that you completely miss if you're not a Japanese speaker. So, did he speak like that before he takes his limiters off, or just when he's a youkai?

He's a scary dude. I'm trying to think of an equivalent language use in English-- maybe someone very polite and mild who lets loose a string of foul language and invective, but I don't think that's really the same, because the change in Hakkai's speech seems more to be about how he perceives himself. But I can truly feel the shock it generates. Very creepy indeed.

I don't think even Hakkai really knows who he is.

[lebateleur.livejournal.com]

No, it's just in two panels - the long shot of his back in the rain, where he's quoting Gojou's words to him during their card game in the original Saiyuki. Here he adds the 'ore' in reference to himself. Then the next panel, with the rain streaming down his face and his hand over his eyes, is where he uses the extremely masculine speech - it can't be helped or I can't stop/change it. This is the only instance in the entire manga that he talks like this. When he confronts the youkai holding Gojou captive, it's back to polite speech patterns and boku, and the boku is emphasised when he first uses it again. Then right before he takes off his limiters, he uses the same phrase - essentially, it can't be helped/I have no choice, only in completely polite speech. Creepy. As. Fuck.

You've absolutely hit the nail on the head here - Hakkai is having a severe identity crisis. There is some very serious mental reconciliation going on between his present youkai-self and his pre-Ii Sou human/post-limiter human self, and I didn't completely comprehend it until you put it in those terms.

He is a very scary dude indeed, and one of my favorite things about the manga is the way Minekura conveys this so vividly. You get the feeling that Hakkai is so in control of Hakkai all the time because he can't afford to lose control, if that makes sense.

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

Then the next panel, with the rain streaming down his face and his hand over his eyes, is where he uses the extremely masculine speech - it can't be helped or I can't stop/change it.

Amazing. With this in mind I listened to the Burial arc on cd last night (reading a translation at the same time), and Akira Ishida does something with his voice at that point-- I don't think I've ever heard his voice actor do that voice again and I've watched all of the anime-- to me he sounds immensely pissed off and at the end of his rope. The first time I ever heard it it made me sit up, and it still does, because it sounds so unlike Hakkai's normal voice.

The difference between boku and ore- will a man use either according to what company he's in, etc, or is it unusual for him to swap between one and the other?

You get the feeling that Hakkai is so in control of Hakkai all the time because he can't afford to lose control, if that makes sense.

It does, completely. This is *exactly* the feeling I get about Hakkai too, and always have, like he's scared of what he could be if he lets go. Well, with good reason because in fact he's a mass murderer. I love the way that Minekura draws him with the corners of his mouth turned down and you think.. oh shit.

[lebateleur.livejournal.com]

Ooh! I'd love to hear that myself - Ishida does a perfect Hakkai, and if anyone can read that part as Minekura intended, it's him. I should look into buying the CD, I think.

will a man use either according to what company he's in
Not really. It's an identity thing - a guy thinks of himself as either an ore or a boku, but not both. This goes along with what I was saying earlier, about how the pronoun expresses, in a single word, a whole bunch about its user's personality, outlook, and demeanor.

That said, pronoun use is situational - an ore-user will switch to 'watashi' when he needs to be polite, as will a boku-user. I think ore-users might use boku in a formal situation (like an opening ceremony), when speaking politely to a status equal or lower, but I'm not entirely certain. I hear boku all the time in these situations, but as I don't know which pronoun the speaker uses on a daily basis, I can't say for certain.

What I love about Hakkai is the way Minekura puts so much into his eyes. They're just ink lines on paper, for crying out loud, but he can look devasted or terrifying based on what she does to him. It's really that, I think that elevates Saiyuki out of the soap opera angst-fest it could so easily become.

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

Minekura is devastatingly good-- I'm so in love with her work. I was staring at this picure of Hakkai recently, and it seemed the more I looked at it, the more expressive his eyes became, and I found it really hard to pinpoint exactly what his expression meant, just that it was immensley affecting. I think this must be a mark of how good she is, that she can make some ink and paper so expressive and absorbing.



If you want, I can upload that particular track of the Burial cd to yousendit-- it's about 25mb.

[lebateleur.livejournal.com]

For me that expression is desolation, but yes, even with that said it conveys so much more. Ah! I just want to jump up and down because it's impossible to say, but it just captures so much about who Hakkai is, and these are just ink lines!

Once I hear that track I'11 want the whole CD anyway, so I tried to preemptively buy it today, but no one has it in stock, dammit. If you don't mind uploading it, that'll be great, but YSI's a royal pain, so don't try too hard. I will go out and buy the thing eventually, after all.

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

I had a go anyway:-), so it's here:

http://s32.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=0VHRLSSJIJBFQ1ISBV5FKHC95E

[lebateleur.livejournal.com]

So I had a listen, and that thing Ishida does with his voice is incredible - so angry but so in control.

One thing I should mention in the interest of disclosure is that the drama CD keeps the 'ore' as a flashback bit of Gojyou's dialogue, so I may have been misreading the intent of the panel in thinking that Hakkai was referring to himself as ore, which rather invalidates this whole discussion. Still, my gut says this isn't the case.

On a side note, you can hear Sanzou using 'watashi' to the 3butsushin - an example of pronoun-switching in action!

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

It makes you sit up and take notice, doesn't it? It's so unlike Hakkai. This itself seems to uphold your gut feeling about what's going on in these panel.

Well, invalid or not, I've absolutey adored this discussion-- I've learnt so much and have also had some shiny new thoughts about Hakkai:D

[lebateleur.livejournal.com]

I know. Me too. And they are threatening to become stories. As if I didn't already have enough bunnies beating at the gates...

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

I meant to say ages ago - that's great news! I love your Saiyuki fic.

[mistressrenet.livejournal.com]

You get the feeling that Hakkai is so in control of Hakkai all the time because he can't afford to lose control, if that makes sense.
Abso-fucking-lutely.