Saiyuki vol 7 : Gojyo and Sanzo

[louiselux]

I keep looking at one particular bit of volume 7. Opinions welcomed, please.

Images under the cut:



Sanzo hits Gojyo and Gojyo just takes it because he thinks he deserves it.



His submission to Sanzo is very compelling (shut up) because on the surface it's very un-Gojyo-like. But there's more than just surface, because his ashamed, head down reaction to Sanzo's anger is an uncanny echo of his childhood, which we are shown only a few frames previously.



It's as though some deeply ingrained response has kicked in when Sanzo hits him, combined with the awful guilt from thinking he's responsible for Hakkai and Goku's death.  If you take the parallel further, then, alarmingly, this moment puts Sanzo in the place of Gojyo's mother,



who hits him



and leaves him feeling guilty and desolate.

I don't really know what to draw from this, but I love the layers. I think this makes their relationship even more interesting, because  Sanzo has some measure of authority over Gojyo as leader of the group, which Gojyo tacitly acknowledges by never challenging it. Sanzo is also, technically, a holy person. Even though both Sanzo and Gojyo are as far from holy as you can get, Sanzo still represents something unattainable to Gojyo. Perhaps in a spiritual sense, although I think Gojyo becomes more self-reflective as the story goes on, but more in Sanzo's sense of privilege and higher social standing and power.  We know that Gojyo was constantly ashamed as a child and felt terrible guilt. His adult bravado is partly a reaction to that and partly to being an outsider.

Comments

[scribblemoose]

I totally agree. And another reason Gojyo takes it - because he'd rather Sanzo hit him than the kid he was trying to protect.

Sanzo's very interesting here too, because on the one hand he's geniuinely angry at Gojyo, but he's also mad at himself. He hates to be reminded how much the others mean to him.

And in the end it's Sanzo that takes their interaction back to something like their usual snarky banter.

But mostly, Gojyo, yes, completely, and the layers. Oh my, the layers.

I reread the Saiyuki manga so often it's ridiculous, but I find something new every single time; a metaphor here, a subtext there, or a little expression on someone's face that makes me think of things in a new light. I've never found another series that I can the same for. And yet at the same time it can be enjoyed as outright fun.

*happy fangirl sigh*

[wildelamassu.livejournal.com]

Yet another reason why I often shy away from the way they're written as a pairing (a dominant Gojyo seducing the Ice Queen)--there's so much "authority" tension there to be acknowledged and overcome on Sanzo's part. In a really odd way, Sanzo is the father of their little family, and I think Gojyo maps a bit of -both- his parents onto said figure.

I reiterate that Minekura is a goddess.

[cicer.livejournal.com]

I love that part. As scribbles said above, Saiyuki has so many fabulous layers, every time you reread a certain section you can find different metaphors and different interpretations.

I do think Gojyo respects Sanzo, because as much as he teases and harasses Sanzo, when they're in a difficult spot he always seems to defer to Sanzo's authority. I think Gojyo thinks that Sanzo is above him, but I also think he thinks that most people are above him. Deep down, I don't think Gojyo thinks very highly of himself. A lot of that can undoubtedly be traced back to his mother.

What I especially like in this scene is the strong theme of guilt. Gojyo feels guilty for what happened to his friends, and he feels guilty that his mother could never love him. He even goes so far as to sympathize with the person who hurt his friends, because he sees them as an innocent child who didn't mean to cause anyone pain, just like himself.

Hm. Very, very interesting.

[mistressrenet.livejournal.com]

I think it's also why Gojyo takes off, in the end, rather than directly confronting Sanzo.

God, Minekura rocks.

[aramuin.livejournal.com]

I agree completely with the family analogy but I'd take it a step further. As a group, there's definate overtones of family between all four of them - Hakkai as the traditional 'mother' who nutures and supports the others, Sanzo as the traditional 'father' or 'dispenser of tough love', Gojyo as the eldest brother - still not totally sure who he is but slowly finding out and Goku as the kid who still believes the world can be broken down into black and white terms.

The way Gojyo and Sanzo interact has always fascinated me - mainly because I think that they're actually very alike in terms of personality. The main difference is that Sanzo had his teacher's support to help keep him strong when he was growing up whereas Gojyo was constantly under attack.

That might be why they strike so many sparks off each other though - Gojyo resenting/admiring Sanzo for being that ruthless and that strong and Sanzo resenting the reminder that 'but for the grace of God, there go I'.

[blu-mondae.livejournal.com]

I think your observation is accurate, but I think that there's another aspect to their relationship which serves as a counterweight, so that Sanzo does not necessarily have the upper hand.

That is: Gojyo is the only one of the lot who is not bound to Sanzo, and who is thus truly free to leave. (And is, in fact, the only one who does.)

Goku is tied to Sanzo by emotional dependency; he initially objects to leaving Gojyo behind, but caves as soon as Sanzo threatens to leave him behind, too.

Hakkai is bound by duty, responsibility, and guilt. When Sanzo told Chin Isou that Hakkai would rather bite his tongue off and die than betray him, he wasn't exaggerating or being presumptuous, he was making a statement of fact. Considering Hakkai's behavior after they leave Gojyo, biting his tongue off might have been the healthier option.

Gojyo, however, is there simply because he chooses to be. The fact that he then chooses not to be is clearly upsetting to Sanzo (although I am not sure I can express exactly how)--the monk is even more of a dick than usual during the Gojyo-less period.

[broken--bird.livejournal.com]

hi. I am a stranger. ;)


exactly. sanzo is totally unused to the concept of being betrayed--ignored, as it were. hakkai would rather bite his own tongue off and die; goku is goku and his loyalty is unflinching and not something easily challenged, so much as questioned. in a way, sanzo is a bit of a control freak, but he's used to it, almost, nearly has every right to assume such. my way or the highway. he never took into account that someone would actually choose the highway.

I think that says as much about sanzo's character as it does about gojyo's. in the end, "free of all, bound by nothing" is a philosophy each of them preach but none of them practice.

[mistressrenet.livejournal.com]

I think there's a certain amount of resentment/admiration in Sanzo, too, that Gojyo is so open.

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

because he'd rather Sanzo hit him than the kid he was trying to protect.

Yes, absolutely!

it's Sanzo that takes their interaction back to something like their usual snarky banter.

Yes, because Gojyo is so low at this point and Sanzo could really crush him if he chose, but he doesn't. He turns things away to their more normal interaction. I can't help but see it as Sanzo grudgingly caring about him.

What I love especially in this little scene is the way Sanzo looks away from Gojyo, as though he doesn't want to see or can't deal with Gojyo showing genuine distress. It's exactly how you'd think he'd behave, but perhaps there's something of care there too.

*happily fangirls alongside you*

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

I think you have a good point about both parents, because Sanzo is the father figure, even if he hates to be in that position. I also think he'd have problems sleeping with any of the group because of that, although that doesn't stop me liking those Ice Queen fics:-)

I'd really like to see some fics that deal with the authority issue, though.

[aramuin.livejournal.com]

True - and possibly envy that Gojyo really doesn't have any attatchments (at least when they first meet) and can do as he pleases.

[mistressrenet.livejournal.com]

I think Sanzo's angry at himself, too-- he almost never reacts out of genuine anger like that, I can't remember him doing it at any other time. It's an interesting contrast between his everyday irritation-born violence.

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

Me either. He has a shouting match with Hakkai later on, but there's no way on earth I can imagine him punching Hakkai the way he does Gojyo. Interesting that it's acceptable for him (from his pov) to take out his anger at everything so violently on Gojyo.

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

I wonder if Gojyo thinks Hakkai is above him too. I get the feeling he does and it's very sad. He really is a very empathic and caring sort of person under the bluster.

[mistressrenet.livejournal.com]

His relationship is very different though-- he's Hakkai's jailer on some weird level and he's not an abuse-of-power kind of guy. He doesn't have any kind of responsiblity for Gojyo.

[mistressrenet.livejournal.com]

Did you ever read that piece emungere wrote-- the "God, please violate me" one? It touches on that a little.

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

Word to Hakkai's extremely unhealthy repression of his feelings after Gojyo leaves. I mean it's not exactly clear what he's feeling, but it seems to be a mix of anger at both Sanzo and Gojyo and also himself. I don't buy his 'we're weaker without Gojyo' excuse as the reason for going back for him and neither does Sanzo, who pins it quite correctly to Hakkai's own guilt for not stopping Gojyo.

Have you read scribblemoose's Gojyo essay? She brings out some interesting things about Gojyo's role in the group and his relationship with Sanzo. As Hakkai point out, quite evilly, the lack of Gojyo causes Sanzo to have more wrinkles in his brow, so maybe their bickering provides an outlet for Sanzo's tension that he otherwise wouldn't have.

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

hello! :D


I think that's exactly what makes Sanzo mad, to the point where he can't even bear to listen to Gojyo's name being spoken aloud. His entire existence is about keeping rigid control over himself and his feelings and to do that he needs to keep control of others too, to make sure their actions are expected and ones he can cope with. So he's developed this life where he has the expectation that everyone will do as he says and give him what he needs without question or argument. Gojyo's refusal to comply must shake him hugely.

He certainly is bound by the other three and by the needs of the ordinary people he encounters on the journey. I think the resolution of vol 9 points to him realising this and, while maybe not being happy about it, being able to accept that there are some things he needs, even more than to stay in control.

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

Oh, yes, many times. XD

I love the bit at the end where she deals with how Gojyo feels about Hakkai, how he can't help but see Hakkai being his better. I wonder if Hakkai thinks that too, vice versa, about Gojyo. Someone (maybe broken_bird?) recently made a really great point about how Gojyo regularly blindsides Hakkai with the things he says. It's evidence that perhaps Hakkai is in fact the one who looks up to Gojyo, not the more obvious interpretation of Gojyo looking up to Hakkai. But I think there's a bit of both going on, which emungere nails completely in her fic.

[mistressrenet.livejournal.com]

One of the things-- and I say this over and over again, but it's still true, dammit-- that really stands out to me is all the mirroring in Saiyuki-- Goku and Sanzo have their weird protective/supportive relationship, and Gojyo and Sanzo have all these weird connections they resent and admire and resent admiring each other for, and so, yeah. There's a lot of balance in it.

[mistressrenet.livejournal.com]

I think also Gojyo is the one who will say no to him-- pretty regularly-- and I think even he realizes that on some level he needs that challenging. Sanzo can be an idiot, but he does have a pretty good idea of his own limitations.

[blu-mondae.livejournal.com]

I think you're right about Hakkai being angry (at Sanzo, Gojyo and himself), but I think his, um, erratic behavior has a more fundamental root. He's lost his anchor, possibly forever. For all his calm demeanor, Hakkai really isn't particularly well-balanced. Gojyo wasn't exaggerating in the Chin Yisou arc, either, when he told Goku that Hakkai wasn't mentally stable. Hakkai has the role of group caretaker, but Gojyo takes care of Hakkai, and I don't think even Hakkai realizes how important that is until he's not there any more. After all, they've pretty much been together for as long as Hakkai has been Hakkai; how would he know how well (or poorly) he'd handle separation?

And, yeah, the "we're weaker w/o Gojyo" thing is total BS. Or, more precisely, it is Hakkai trying to persuade Sanzo to change his mind by appealing to what Sanzo claims is most important--the success of the mission. And of course it doesn't work, because Sanzo is a genius when it comes to discerning the true motivations of anybody but himself, and he sees right through Hakkai's attempts at manipulating him.

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

Yes, the mirroring! Some of it's obvious but more often it's only seen obliquely, or after some thought. I think It's one of the reasons why I love Saiyuki so much - there's just so much there to pull apart and examine.

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

True. This is one place where Gojyo says no and in the end the group is stronger for it. And so is Sanzo, I think, because by the end of vol 9 he's realising that he's bound to the others and that this is not necessarily a bad thing.

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

I don't think even Hakkai realizes how important that is until he's not there any more. After all, they've pretty much been together for as long as Hakkai has been Hakkai; how would he know how well (or poorly) he'd handle separation?

Oh, yes, brilliant! I love this insight.

Yes, that 'mentally unstable' comment sticks in the mind, because we don't know if Gojyo means all the time or just now. If he means all the time, then that paints a *very* different picture of Hakkai than the one we've seen up til then.

[louiselux.livejournal.com]

Because he can't face what Sanzo will say, maybe?

She does!

[mistressrenet.livejournal.com]

Because it's 'mom,' on some weird level, and he doesn't want to fight. Whether he doesn't want to lose or is afraid of winning, I don't know.

[mistressrenet.livejournal.com]

I don't think even Hakkai realizes how important that is until he's not there any more.
I think that's absolutely right-- I don't think he would've let Gojyo go otherwise. I think he knows s important to Gojyo, so he lets him go, but I don't think he realizes how devastating the consequences will be to all of them.

[mistressrenet.livejournal.com]

He's certainly the least stable of the four-- I think the Kami-sama arc shows that. Goku at least has to have his limiter off before he goes all stabbity.

[cosmorific.livejournal.com]

Everyone else here has made some excellent points, but I would just like to say:

*cuddles Gojyo*

[scribblemoose]

I'd like to join you in that, if I may.

*cuddles Gojyo also*

[cosmorific.livejournal.com]

Feel free. ^_^

Gojyo: *is cuddled*